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""90% of the guns in Mexico come from the U.S."

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
What would Obama do if there were right wing extremists somewhere in the Everglades who took over a big patch of territory? He would definetely napalm the whole deal. (maybe they should disguise themselves as islamic terro....I mean, Freedom Fighters to avoid that)

Obama wouldn't be doing anything in that case. Provided they had rights to land, broke no laws they would be free to assemble as they so choose.

If they broke laws, depending on which ones..... law enforcement at the local or federal level would respond. And to my knowledge, neither has napalm to deploy.
 

Red Spyder

Yes, I bribed and cheated to get this far
Obama wouldn't be doing anything in that case. Provided they had rights to land, broke no laws they would be free to assemble as they so choose.

If they broke laws, depending on which ones..... law enforcement at the local or federal level would respond. And to my knowledge, neither has napalm to deploy.

Yup, if no laws are broken, no reason to do anything. In the case of the Zapatistas they took over several towns by force, shot at and killed soldiers and police officers so as far as I'm concerned the Mexican government, as well as the Obama administration, would be completely justified in sending in troops into an area occupied by force by an armed paramilitary force and wipe them out.

I've seen a few houses in Mexico owned by cartel members, one of them well hidden out in the middle of the brush, though right now I don't remember exactly where it is since I wasn't driving that day and that was many years ago too, the house looked like a fortress with high walls, looked nice too. Just a matter of finding out how many armed guards inside and sending in the troops or just drop a couple 500 pounders to make it easier. But of course that would cause an outrage because of the "collateral" damage and the fact that their rights were violated, yadda yadda yadda.
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
so as far as I'm concerned the Mexican government, as well as the Obama administration, would be completely justified in sending in troops into an area occupied by force by an armed paramilitary force and wipe them out.

Frankly, the drug problem is a demand problem. You can kill one guy or some group of guys or all of them for that matter and that wouldn't solve the problem with drugs because there is a demand. Wherever there is a demand for something...some enterprising person or group will attempt to meet it.

When something is forced to the black market by statute all that does is take all of the associated business and force it underground where disputes are settled with bullets instead of lawsuits.

Didn't we see this movie with prohibition?

Don't look now but here come the dish detergent bootleggers.

http://www.nowpublic.com/strange/dirty-dishs-and-bootleg-detergent
 

Facetious

Moderated
Don't look now but here come the dish detergent bootleggers.

http://www.nowpublic.com/strange/dirty-dishs-and-bootleg-detergent

We're all in the wrong business with all of these "environmentally friendly" alternatives coming down the pike . . if they only worked like the original :(.

You just can't win with the mainstream agenda driven enviraweenie these days. :rolleyes: The new detergent alternative requires to usage of more water than the horrible phosphate version and this is going on at the same time that environmentalists want to "blow up" our man made water sheds e.g. reservoirs / dams.

Sorry for drifting the topic :o


Meanwhile -
Lawmaker says border needs more attention
By Ramon Bracamontes / El Paso Times
Posted: 04/21/2009 12:00:00 AM MDT


EL PASO -- After touring the El Paso/Juárez border on Monday, U.S. Rep. Michael McCaul said he would to try to double the budget for Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

McCaul, R-Texas, said he would file a bill increasing the ICE budget to $5 billion. It currently is $2.4 billion.

As ranking member of the Homeland Security intelligence Subcommittee, McCaul also said he would try to get sheriff's departments along the Southwest border $600 million in funding.

Congress' appropriations cycle begins in June, and any money approved would be available by year's end.

"We literally arm and fund these dangerous cartels," McCaul said of guns and cash that flow illegally from the United States to drug lords Mexico. "We share this problem and we need to do what we can to help."

full story



What a novel idea from this apparent retarded, good for nothing money grubbing, REPUBLIKAN bureaucrat. "The border needs more attention" ?
What exactly do you mean, congressman ? Throwing money at the problem ain't gonna help one iota ! You first have to have the political will to to employ something that's proven to be effective, mr congressman ! 1/2 measures ain't gonna work, sir !
Let's get honest here, congressman ! You've found a golden opportunity to . . . .cash in right ?

Oh, yeah . . uh huh . . .sure thing . . righto

"We literally arm and fund these dangerous cartels," McCaul said of guns and cash that flow illegally from the United States to drug lords Mexico.
In ref to the weapons The proof pudding is where ?

disgusting jerk ! :crash:

:D
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
In ref to the weapons The proof pudding is where ?

If a serial no. on a firearm is matched to a US manufacturer, where does it likely come from? I suppose they could have made their way around the world and then to Mexico but wouldn't the trip be much easier and faster across our southern border?
 

Facetious

Moderated
Matched by whom, a bureaucrat with an agenda ?
. . somebody outside the realm of impartiality ? :1orglaugh

For the same reasons I don't buy Mexican grown produce, I don't buy the "weapons are coming from America" side of the story.

Back to the REAL problem at hand -

Drugs, Illegal Immigration, Gang Warfare on the American street, money laundering and lackluster, impotent, cowardace and tentative bleeding heart politicians.
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Matched by whom, a bureaucrat with an agenda ?
. . somebody outside the realm of impartiality ?

So let me get this straight, a serious person is going to confiscate a weapon, research the serial no., discover that it originated from someplace other than the US but because you believe their are those allegedly "outside the realm of impartiality" those people would fraudulent claim they came from the US anyway??

First, before I even get to the plausibility of something that absurd (in this type of case), how many countries in the Americas actually manufacture firearms besides the US?? Then you'd have to get a reasonable person to believe that criminals in Mexico would choose to get their firearms from a place other than the place nearest to them, with the most amount of firearms with in most cases the easiest access to them.

I mean, wouldn't a reasonable person have to suspend a whole lot of reality to swallow what you're shoveling.
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
If a serial no. on a firearm is matched to a US manufacturer, where does it likely come from? I suppose they could have made their way around the world and then to Mexico but wouldn't the trip be much easier and faster across our southern border?

All guns legally purchased in the USA are going to come back to the USA, whether they were made here, or imported, sold to a distributor, then sold to a person. The Clinton gun ban also established no imports, so many companies manufactured here, under license. Of course, there is also that chunk of sovereign land that Clinton gave to China...gotta wonder how many cheap AK knock offs flowed through there every week.

Facetious said:
Matched by whom, a bureaucrat with an agenda ?
. . somebody outside the realm of impartiality ?

For the same reasons I don't buy Mexican grown produce, I don't buy the "weapons are coming from America" side of the story.

Back to the REAL problem at hand -

Drugs, Illegal Immigration, Gang Warfare on the American street, money laundering and lackluster, impotent, cowardace and tentative bleeding heart politicians.

This is a great post, I tried to rep you, but I can't until I rep others...would someone post something good so I can hit this dude up.
 

Philbert

Banned
So let me get this straight, a serious person is going to confiscate a weapon, research the serial no., discover that it originated from someplace other than the US but because you believe their are those allegedly "outside the realm of impartiality" those people would fraudulent claim they came from the US anyway??

First, before I even get to the plausibility of something that absurd (in this type of case), how many countries in the Americas actually manufacture firearms besides the US?? Then you'd have to get a reasonable person to believe that criminals in Mexico would choose to get their firearms from a place other than the place nearest to them, with the most amount of firearms with in most cases the easiest access to them.

I mean, wouldn't a reasonable person have to suspend a whole lot of reality to swallow what you're shoveling.


Brazil is a major manufacturer of guns...when I was in Guatemala i saw M16s, Galils, Barettas and Taurus, Colts, S&Ws, etc. Czech guns and Russian guns, Chinese and European guns are everywhere available, and can be "sold" to an American importer and actually never get owned by an American, or were stolen and passed around 'til getting to Mexico.
Since only about 17% of cartel weapons are from the US, 80+ % are from the usual sources.
I mean...these cartels put smack, crank, reefer, and blow by the metric kilotonnes in the hands of Americans, Europeans, and Asians the world over, with thousands of people trying to catch and stop them...why would there be any difficulty for the cartel to bring in a few tons of small arms and bigger hardware to their home operations? Or have it delivered?
They could put 50 peons in 20 locations and have them do nothing but make ammo day and night...for almost nothing Dollar-wise. And easier to access and more anonymous.

I mean, wouldn't a reasonable person have to suspend a whole lot of reality to swallow what you're shoveling.
 

Friday on my mind

Pain heals, chicks dig scars, Freeones lasts forever
All guns legally purchased in the USA are going to come back to the USA, whether they were made here, or imported, sold to a distributor, then sold to a person. The Clinton gun ban also established no imports, so many companies manufactured here, under license. Of course, there is also that chunk of sovereign land that Clinton gave to China...gotta wonder how many cheap AK knock offs flowed through there every week.



This is a great post, I tried to rep you, but I can't until I rep others...would someone post something good so I can hit this dude up.

Bet you don't think this is that post you want to rep lol.I'm not really responding to argue with your position on guns but have to say a few words on that.Even as a supporter of the 2nd amendment we probably wouldn't agree on anything about guns. Our widespread availabilty of legal guns no doubt has all kinds of bad side effects like the ones in this thread which points out that overwhelmingly the weapons used illegally in mexico came from the US. Or that also for us here at home that availability means a lot more carnage.I would point out that almost every illegal gun here started out as a legal one once.There is just no denying IMO these basic truths about guns.They make killing much easier then in places with less guns.And most gun crimes are by up to then law abiding citizens who got there guns legally.For every criminal that sticks up a liquor store and shoots the owner there is several cases of someone who took his gun and shot his neighbor he was arguing with or possibly one of his family members.Guns in the house don't really make ya safer,all the stats show that.But I still support the right even given all that.
But the real reason I responded was this thing about land given back to china.You can't be refering to Hong Kong by any chance? Because if thats what you mean you are really twisting history.It was sovereign land alright,it always belonged to China.The British had a 99 year lease (which was gained under duress probably lol).The lease ran out and control was returned.I'm sure when the brits signed the lease they were like hell 99 years thats long enough and well all be dead anyway by then so who cares lol.In all that how does Clinton and the US play any role really? And I have never seen anything that states ak-47s from china make their way to mexico in numbers.But then again I think some things the govt says are true occasionally and can be verified anyway unlike the guy you want to rep.:D
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Brazil is a major manufacturer of guns...when I was in Guatemala i saw M16s, Galils, Barettas and Taurus, Colts, S&Ws, etc. Czech guns and Russian guns,

So again I ask, it's easier for Mexican gangs (with BTW more connections to gangs here in the US) to ignore their proximity to the US, their connections in the US (a country in North America like theirs), cross I don't know how many borders traversing from North America through Central America to South America to get something readily accessible to them across one, porous border that they already ship drugs and people across freely?

I suppose you could be right:confused:
 

Member2019

1,000 posts to go for my own user title!
Repeat theme?

First, before I even get to the plausibility of something that absurd (in this type of case), how many countries in the Americas actually manufacture firearms besides the US??
Apparently you don't know much, and that's becoming a repeat theme.

Starting with the second half of the 20th century, most American nations aligned themselves with NATO (even if not in NATO) standards. Virtually all nations in the western hemisphere adopted the 7.62x51mm (0.308") NATO and licensed the FAL design from FN, which FN allowed very liberally. I.e., think of the FAL as the western equivalent of the AKM, underwritten quite liberally only for the western world. These same nations scoffed at changing when the US tried to push the 5.56x45mm (0.22") as another standard, and many didn't bother adopting it after most of NATO did in the '80s or by the '90s. They still have a lot of FALs.

The FAL, and its variants, are still manufactured it for the hunting market because 7.62 NATO is still a very popular round for its range. It's still the "western world's" most common and commodity sniper round. The FAL was also, and quite regularly, fabbed fully auto because many nations don't have the US restrictions, let alone the militaries preferred them that way. The 7.62 NATO also packs a hell of a lot more punch than the 5.56 NATO, including straight through any body armor of any American law enforcement. The movies may show these guys packing 9mm SMGs, but the reality is that 7.62 is very common with organized crime from outside the US. And organized crime from outside the US is responsible for over 90% of the automatic weapons discharges in the US.

Now over the last few decades, you have several nations adopting the 7.62x39mm Russian. The USSR and, now, the Russians also licensed quite liberally the AKM, including into the Americas post-Soviet collapse. You have several, major fabrication facilities outside the US, which are not AR-preferring, and are looking for an alternative to the FAL. The AKM fits very naturally, especially with newer designs like the AKM-90s through the very respected (even by American AR enthusiasts) AK-103 and related models.

Then you'd have to get a reasonable person to believe that criminals in Mexico would choose to get their firearms from a place other than the place nearest to them, with the most amount of firearms with in most cases the easiest access to them.
If it's an AR platform, yes, it's likely from the US. Although there are many, greatly cheaper knock-off AR platforms from China and the like. It all depends.

If it's not an AR platform, then it's not likely from the US. I.e., FAL, AKM or anything other than 5.56mm (.22") in the legacy AR type approach. Mexico's military prefers the AR, but that's about it. Again, most of the American military world outside the US took forever to drop the FAL, and some still have not. Several others have even gone AKM.

And even those looked again to FN, instead of AR, for even 5.56 NATO. The "gold standard" in the bullpup option is Austria's Styer, and several American nations have adopted it, along with Australia and other nations with a very strong rifle history. But, again, that's for 5.56 NATO, which may not be commonly found in organized crime, only militaries.

Those guys, again, prefer to stick with common, inexpensive, proven 7.62 NATO or Russian platforms, typically FAL and AKM, respectively. You don't see organized crime toting AR platforms much, as the ARs are iconic for US and, to a lesser extent, Mexican military. A lot of the organized crime is built around growers not from Mexico, but from other parts of the Americas.

They aren't coming into Mexico with ARs any more than the US. They are often brandishing FAL or AKM products that are solid, reliable and cheap. Newer US, Belgian, Austrian, etc... designs are not remotely cheap. They are not always better either (depending on your definition).

I mean, wouldn't a reasonable person have to suspend a whole lot of reality to swallow what you're shoveling.
Actually, several nations in the EU have been very guilty of not controlling their gun exports, far, far worse than the US (or the UK). This has regularly been the case of not merely France, but nations that have their economies tied to firearms orders of magnitude than the US -- like Austria and Belgium. Austria exported a brand new .50 sniper rifle design to Iran, under great protest of the US. It wasn't even a month later that it was found in the hands of an insurgent in Iraq. There was absolutely no question where it came from.

China is actually a huge supplier now, with knock-offs of every platform, including the US popular AR.
 

Facetious

Moderated
unlike the guy you want to rep.:D
Don't you try to sneak one by on me, mister ! :D

What would you like to verify today ? :)

Who's the verifier of the verifier ?

In the end, it all comes down to what we choose to believe, no ?

Face it, we're all 'ol stubborn, set in our ways :sing: Men . .men . . men :sing:
and that's a gift if you ask me, the ability to disagree with one another, the govt. included, not everybody has that luxury. Most of the stuff that I like to discuss is ideological in nature where there are no absolute right or wrongs, preference issues, you know ?

Having said that, if we're passionate enough about something, there's not a chance in hell that any link is gonna change a thing as, 99.9999 % of the time, the humanity within us will theorize / hypothesize a context with which validates our long standing preconceived belief, correct ?


There I go again, drifting the topic
Well, Back on topic. I will now remain resolute ! ha ha !
 

Member2019

1,000 posts to go for my own user title!
What I find funny ...

Our widespread availabilty of legal guns no doubt has all kinds of bad side effects like the ones in this thread which points out that overwhelmingly the weapons used illegally in mexico came from the US.
What I find funny is that they keep talking about the .50 Barrett in these alleged "findings." They then "glue" that to other things.

The reality?

The Barrett .50 sniper rifles are few, far between and damn expensive. They are not commodity, they are not common, and they are found in handful type numbers, not hundreds, when weapons are confiscated from organized crime.

And in that case, legal gun ownership in the US has nothing to do with this at all. Most Americans don't buy Barrett .50 rifles. They buy 7.62 NATO and 5.56 NATO, typically based on M14 and AR15 like platforms, not FAL or otherwise.

And then you have the AKM, probably the least popular platform in the US between M14, AR15 and AKM designs. Where are they coming from? Hardly from the "booming market for AKM" designs in the US. They are coming from its popularity abroad.

And this last point is what really gets me. During the AWB, prices on FAL and AKM prices plummeted in the US, because no one was interested in them -- no one who wanted to buy one legally. It was only illegal procurement. Supply was huge, demand was less, so it was a firesale for organized crime.

Which comes back to the reality. Legal guns sales and ownership in the US has absolutely nothing to do with illegal, let alone criminal, usage. There are many other nations where their economies are tied to gun sales far more than the US, like Austria and Belgium.

Enough that they sell to Iran and other nations, license to various nations in the Americas, including those where most organized crime is based and where the cash crop comes from. It's hardly Mexico or the US where these originate. The US is not the only nation that produces weapons, but people seem to ass-u-me that because the US has its 2nd Amendment. That's not the case at all, and it's born out of 100% assumption, 100% ignorance.

This "urban legend" is so funny to most people. Unfortunately, people are giving it consideration to the joke like it is not. The NRA tries to point out these obvious details, and its own statistics from not merely its members, but the great number of commercial vendors that are associates as well. People claim the NRA are then pushing lies, to further their cause and business.

But I see that in the media regularly, even when statistics tell otherwise. Just like those statistics on violent crime rates in the US without firearms, or even weapons, versus other nations. Which is why so many in the media miss the reality that outlawing firearms never does jack for crime, and won't help Mexico at all here either. Doesn't matter how many times we pass different laws -- federally or local -- the statistics don't change, and the media pulls a "never mention those" that really do exist.

DC is still my favorite. No one likes to talk about how the DC gun ban didn't do jack. And even the Brady Foundation doesn't like to visit the full story of its own statistics, both pre, during and post AWB -- only the ones that fit their agenda. Organized crime from outside the US still accounts for nearly all assault weapon discharges.

Mexico just has the same problem we do.
 

ballzano

Board Whore
the ak-47 is the most prolific weapon of all time. Somewhere around 100 million have been produced, and it's cheap and reliable. So reliable in fact you really don't need to clean them, and cheap, you could pick one up for 20$ in Iraq. One problem with this incredibly stupid waste of all our time thread, it's not our gun. It's Russian (soviet's and warsaw pact, and china) O.K. so the all knowing all powerful media (they got the turd elected after all) media dictates that guns from the U.S. are hurting mexico. What guns? Pistols? Rifles? Shotguns? Whats with the blanket statement. How are they, what are they doing?....... Seal the fucking border.............................
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Repeat theme?

Apparently you don't know much, and that's becoming a repeat theme.

Austria exported a brand new .50 sniper rifle design to Iran, under great protest of the US. It wasn't even a month later that it was found in the hands of an insurgent in Iraq. There was absolutely no question where it came from.

Don't presume what you think I may or may not know because it could be potentially embarrassing for you. Aside from that, you're getting the subject confused...we can discuss platforms, standards, calibers, potential origins of knock-offs and legal shipments all day.

What do you know about where Mexican and other drug cartels get their firearms from? That is the practical question and of which I probably know 100 times more about than you.

Re: the HS50 Steyr Mannlichers, when we started recovering those in Iraq and alleging they were part of the Austrian shipment to Iran....how do you suspect we knew this??

This isn't rocket science, in most cases it can readily be assessed the origin of a firearm.
 

Member2019

1,000 posts to go for my own user title!
Re: Repeat theme?

Don't presume what you think I may or may not know because it could be potentially embarrassing for you. Aside from that, you're getting the subject confused...we can discuss platforms, standards, calibers, potential origins of knock-offs and legal shipments all day.
What do you know about where Mexican and other drug cartels get their firearms from? That is the practical question and of which I probably know 100 times more about than you.
It's all about platforms, origins, etc... It always has been!

Re: the HS50 Steyr Mannlichers, when we started recovering those in Iraq and alleging they were part of the Austrian shipment to Iran....how do you suspect we knew this??
This isn't rocket science, in most cases it can readily be assessed the origin of a firearm.
Then where the hell are you getting the idea that over 90% of these weapons are originating from the US?

I read through a report and I see AKM, FAL and other weapons far more than M14 or AR types. And even a lot of the M14 and AR types that were caught may have been a result of dumping (and price drops) due to the AWB, as many people have complained.
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.

ballzano

Board Whore
Re: Repeat theme?

Don't presume what you think I may or may not know because it could be potentially embarrassing for you. Aside from that, you're getting the subject confused...we can discuss platforms, standards, calibers, potential origins of knock-offs and legal shipments all day.

What do you know about where Mexican and other drug cartels get their firearms from? That is the practical question and of which I probably know 100 times more about than you.

Re: the HS50 Steyr Mannlichers, when we started recovering those in Iraq and alleging they were part of the Austrian shipment to Iran....how do you suspect we knew this??

This isn't rocket science, in most cases it can readily be assessed the origin of a firearm.

And you are not a rocket scientist (I think i know alot cause i read the paper),
The media is fucking stupid, they are not detectives, or much of anything other then "yes" men/women. Latin america is full of strife, and weapons. The nicaraguan war, El salvidor, Colombia's drug cartel's problem. Not to mention Panama, and CUBA...... All those countries are what is called "latin american countries" they speak the same language that Mexico does. I'd hate to think it would be easier to smuggle weapons across the U.S. border. One more reason to seal the fucking border
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Repeat theme?

The media is fucking stupid,

The nicaraguan war, El salvidor, Colombia's drug cartel's problem. Not to mention Panama, and CUBA...... All those countries are what is called "latin american countries" they speak the same language that Mexico does. I'd hate to think it would be easier to smuggle weapons across the U.S. border. One more reason to seal the fucking border

What does the media have to do with anything or did you forget to delete the "blame the media" from the default cartridge?

Speaking the same languages has less to do with it than where your cartel's foot hold is. Mexican cartels have no foothold in Colombia....and it's more about the US being a porous border away where they have numerous connections already.
 
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