""90% of the guns in Mexico come from the U.S."

[Mr. Daystar]

I wouldn't be likely to trust the ATF's data either. They have an agenda when it comes to guns, in my opinion. I would be more likely to trust FBI data. Also, think about what that said, "TRACEABLE" weapons. How many of those crimes are committed by weapons they can't trace, or from their own corrupt military and law enforcement agencies? Here's a better question. Why isn't the Mexican government, and law enforcement agencies doing more to stop these filthy scumbags from leaving their country? We shouldn't even have to worry about them coming over the border. The Mexican government should stop them, and dole out whatever punishment they need to dole out...including, and preferably death by a bullet or ten, to the head. Why aren't they catching them coming back into their country, if they can't stop them from leaving it? I would take an educated guess and say, because they don't want to. They make to much money in bribes, payoff's, and grants from the big fat pockets of the good old U.S.of A, to fight the pathetically laughable failed war on drugs. If they stopped the guns, the UN's agenda to disarm America, would need to find another excuse, and scapegoat for their nefarious purposes. I want to know, of all the people murdered by gun in Mexico, how many have firm roots from LEGAL purchase, America, and how many are really from Mexican military/law enforcement, and how many are stolen, and how many are sold to criminals, from third world sources. I would bet, the number of legally purchased guns from the U.S.A., count for a very small percentage overall, and I would also suggest, that when a gun is purchased with false data, and identification, it IS NOT a legal purchase. If our government wants to stop this, consider them terrorists, and hold them in prison under the Patriot Act, with no counsel, or trial, until they die in a cell...fuck it, I shouldn't have to sacrifice ONE SINGLE right, or privilege, as a law abiding, tax paying, registered voting citizen...let the filthy dirt ball, that broke the law give up his rights.

 

[Hot Mega]

I wouldn't be likely to trust the ATF's data either. They have an agenda when it comes to guns, in my opinion. I would be more likely to trust FBI data.

You might be right about the FBI if the statistics related to US firearms recovered in the US. But why would the FBI have statistics on firearms recovered in Mexico that originate in the US if an American isn't involved??? It's not even their jurisdiction.

Also, what agenda does the BATF have with respect to firearms????

After all, it's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms....like they have nothing better to do than cook up data on firearms.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

You might be right about the FBI if the statistics related to US firearms recovered in the US. But why would the FBI have statistics on firearms recovered in Mexico that originate in the US if an American isn't involved??? It's not even their jurisdiction.

Also, what agenda does the BATF have with respect to firearms????

After all, it's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms....like they have nothing better to do than cook up data on firearms.

I guess the FBI wouldn't have data, my point was, they generally are the most fair. [PRO GUN PEOPLE>>>FBI<<<ANTI GUN PEOPLE]. I just don't trust agencies like them, it's not about data. I think they would like to see some VERY, VERY strict registration/permit system, or total disarmament. I have no proof, just my opinion.

 

[Hot Mega]

I have no proof, just my opinion.

At least you're being intellectually honest. But if you can't ever trust any data that doesn't conform to your belief aren't you just being incorrigible then?

 

[Mr. Daystar]

At least you're being intellectually honest. But if you can't ever trust any data that doesn't conform to your belief aren't you just being incorrigible then?

I trust some data, some I don't...sources on the other hand are a different story. A source is something I'm far more unlikely to give any leeway to. For instance, the "Bradey center for gun violence", is notorious for making the data "fit" their agenda...anti gun. However, even as a member, I feel that the NRA, does the same, only to the pro gun agenda, but the FBI for some reason, always seems to play it straight when it comes to these stats. I don't really need my beliefs confirmed by data, I just need to worry that I don't become one of the statistics. Yes, I can be very incorrigible, but mostly, I'm just grumpy and stubborn.

 

[wormwood9]

With all of their resources I would think the government could come up with more convincing lies.

Right, they will buy an (semi automatic) ak-47 from the U.S. with all of it's paperwork, for $600 and then come through the U.S./Mexico border

Instead of buying a fully automatic ak-47, and a couple grenades for $200 and coming in from Guatemala :thumbsup: I also have a beach house in Nebraska I'll sell to anyone who'll buy that.

Not to mention, even if it were true, is B-rock going make it official, and make Mexico part of the United States? Otherwise why change United States laws.

 

[Facetious]

I wonder how many of the guns these drug cartels are using, came from corrupt Mexican police, and military?

Lots ! The number of Mexican cop defectors is huge and the reason it is huge is because of coercive intimidation driven by the cartels.

The guns go with the defectors.

Good point revid !

Also, what agenda does the BATF have with respect to firearms????

:rofl:

After all, it's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms....like they have nothing better to do than cook up data on firearms.

like what ? :rofl:

 

[Hot Mega]

Lots ! The number of Mexican cop defectors is huge and the reason it is huge is because of coercive intimidation driven by the cartels.

The guns go with the defectors.

Good point revid !


like what ?

"Lots"...is that like a number or percentage??

BATF...maybe they tend to the "Alcohol and Tobacco" aspects of their agency's responsibility:dunno:

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Just thought I would throw this out there. I would hate for anyone to actually think 90%, means 90%.
http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m6d18-GAO-report-blames-US-gun-laws-for-Mexican-crime

 

[Hot Mega]

Just thought I would throw this out there. I would hate for anyone to actually think 90%, means 90%.
http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m6d18-GAO-report-blames-US-gun-laws-for-Mexican-crime

The thread title is a misquote. The statement is 90% of recovered firearms used in crimes are traced back to the US.

No one claimed as the title incorrectly states 90% of all Mexican firearms come from the US.

And as a legal owner of firearms I'm for closing as many loopholes as possible that allow firearms to end up in the wrong hands.

 

[free4440273]

I never knew The Shield was so realistic

 

[Mr. Daystar]

The thread title is a misquote. The statement is 90% of recovered firearms used in crimes are traced back to the US.

No one claimed as the title incorrectly states 90% of all Mexican firearms come from the US.

And as a legal owner of firearms I'm for closing as many loopholes as possible that allow firearms to end up in the wrong hands.

Did you read the article carefully? It clearly shows how the numbers were manipulated, and all of the guns confiscated were not included. If you want to close a loophole, you need to find one first, because the only loophole I have EVER been able to see are...

#1) Mexico doesn't do anything, let alone something to keep their people contained.

#2) Mexico bitches about the United States making efforts to keep their people out.

#3) The Mexican government, police, and military are so corrupt, even if we were to get rid of EVERY gun in the USA, they would still get guns.

#4) The only way to get a machine gun, is through HEAVILY regulated channels...or your own corrupt police/military. OR from a third world government, or convert post ban weapons, of which, most are coveted, and cherished by American gun owners, and hold a high dollar value...to rare to let go by any true aficionado.

You keep saying silly things like "as a gun owner, I'm for closing loopholes", but you keep failing to mention that never before in the history of this country has it been harder to get a gun...if you are a law abiding citizen, and there are more laws on the book now, then ever before, but criminals still get guns. Why? Because criminals don't follow the letter of the law, and law makers and law enforcers don't prosecute the ones they catch vigorously enough...it's not a loophole that needs to be closed, or more laws that need to be put on the books. As far as Mexico goes, the easiest way to fix that, close the border, and start throwing people out...and when you catch someone trafficking in guns or drugs...put them in a cell for the rest of their life.

 

[nothingandless]

well, 90% of the people in usa are mexican, it just makes sense.

 

[Hot Mega]

You keep saying silly things like "as a gun owner, I'm for closing loopholes", but you keep failing to mention that never before in the history of this country has it been harder to get a gun...if you are a law abiding citizen, and there are more laws on the book now, then ever before, but criminals still get guns. Why? Because criminals don't follow the letter of the law, and law makers and law enforcers don't prosecute the ones they catch vigorously enough...it's not a loophole that needs to be closed, or more laws that need to be put on the books. As far as Mexico goes, the easiest way to fix that, close the border, and start throwing people out...and when you catch someone trafficking in guns or drugs...put them in a cell for the rest of their life.

First of all, the only "gun" I own is in my pants. I own firearms and other weapons for sport and self defense.

Secondly, forget Mexico for a second....we have far too many deranged fucking people here in the US getting their hands on firearms and far too many criminals getting their hands on them. IF THAT'S TRUE, it's OBVIOUS there are loopholes SOMEWHERE. Shouldn't that be an obvious reality???

The question/challenge is how do we keep fairly deranged people from them while maintaining the right of law abiding citizens to them?

Something like that sounds "silly" to you because you obviously live in the vacuum of extremist fundamentalism on this subject to which any mention of accountability with respect to firearms triggers an automatic knee-jerk defense of something that isn't being challenged. Where any talk of owning firearms and accountability is seen as mutually exclusive, incompatible propositions.

I on the other hand, believing in my right to own my firearms recognize how firearms ending up the hands of people who then go out and commit sensationalized crimes ultimately conspires against my right to that ownership.

It doesn't square with logic to me that there is more effort and resources devoted tracking down a stolen car than there is devoted to tracking down a stolen firearm. That there are more resources and protocol required to transfer legal possession of a car or boat than in some cases there is with a firearm.

Closing loopholes just depends on what priority you're willing to place on keeping firearms out of the hands of the wrong people.

 

[Legzman]

This is no surprise when you consider 90% of the weapons in the world come from the U.S.

I dunno, but it sounds about right.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

First of all, the only "gun" I own is in my pants. I own firearms and other weapons for sport and self defense.

Secondly, forget Mexico for a second....we have far too many deranged fucking people here in the US getting their hands on firearms and far too many criminals getting their hands on them. IF THAT'S TRUE, it's OBVIOUS there are loopholes SOMEWHERE. Shouldn't that be an obvious reality???

The question/challenge is how do we keep fairly deranged people from them while maintaining the right of law abiding citizens to them?

Something like that sounds "silly" to you because you obviously live in the vacuum of extremist fundamentalism on this subject to which any mention of accountability with respect to firearms triggers an automatic knee-jerk defense of something that isn't being challenged. Where any talk of owning firearms and accountability is seen as mutually exclusive, incompatible propositions.

I on the other hand, believing in my right to own my firearms recognize how firearms ending up the hands of people who then go out and commit sensationalized crimes ultimately conspires against my right to that ownership.

It doesn't square with logic to me that there is more effort and resources devoted tracking down a stolen car than there is devoted to tracking down a stolen firearm. That there are more resources and protocol required to transfer legal possession of a car or boat than in some cases there is with a firearm.

Closing loopholes just depends on what priority you're willing to place on keeping firearms out of the hands of the wrong people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...this is my rifle, this is my gun...blah, blah.

Okay, heres the problem I have. If a deranged fuck, gets a gun, there are only 3 ways he got it. He bought it when he WASN'T a deranged fuck, or he stole it from someone, or, someone sold it to him, and shouldn't have.

Now, number 1 would only be controllable if EVERY gun owner was subject to psychological testing prior to ownership, and continued testing throughout ownership, to maintain certainty. I will not go into how ridicules, and unfeasible, and most importantly, Unconstitutional that idea truly is.

Numbers 2 and 3, the most logical way, aren't loopholes, they are fucking criminals, and as I've said, to many times to count, don't punish me, for someone else's crimes, punish them. I have never said I don't want accountability for criminals, and I defy you to prove I have. The answer to your question, "how do we keep our rights, and keep the nuts from getting them?" is simple. Never let them out of jail, or in extreme cases, kill them. I feel basically the same, I know nutjobs are why my rights get threatened, but you have spewed this loophole bullshit, and have yet to define what loopholes you are talking about, and have yet to offer a solution...maybe that's why I have kneejerk reactions. They're probably from your double talk...you must be in politics...at least I have tried to offer some ideas, even if they are bad. At least I try to not let silly anti gun lies be taken as serious truthful facts and data. As far as my "vacuum of extreme fundamentalism" goes...I call it passionate about a cause.

 

[Hot Mega]

Yeah, yeah, yeah...this is my rifle, this is my gun...blah, blah.

Okay, heres the problem I have. If a deranged fuck, gets a gun, there are only 3 ways he got it. He bought it when he WASN'T a deranged fuck, or he stole it from someone, or, someone sold it to him, and shouldn't have.

Now, number 1 would only be controllable if EVERY gun owner was subject to psychological testing prior to ownership, and continued testing throughout ownership, to maintain certainty. I will not go into how ridicules, and unfeasible, and most importantly, Unconstitutional that idea truly is.

Numbers 2 and 3, the most logical way, aren't loopholes, they are fucking criminals, and as I've said, to many times to count, don't punish me, for someone else's crimes, punish them. I have never said I don't want accountability for criminals, and I defy you to prove I have. The answer to your question, "how do we keep our rights, and keep the nuts from getting them?" is simple. Never let them out of jail, or in extreme cases, kill them. I feel basically the same, I know nutjobs are why my rights get threatened, but you have spewed this loophole bullshit, and have yet to define what loopholes you are talking about, and have yet to offer a solution...maybe that's why I have kneejerk reactions. They're probably from your double talk...you must be in politics...at least I have tried to offer some ideas, even if they are bad. At least I try to not let silly anti gun lies be taken as serious truthful facts and data. As far as my "vacuum of extreme fundamentalism" goes...I call it passionate about a cause.

This is the problem with fundamentalism, it doesn't allow for reasonable solutions as any solution that calls for stringent accountability is viewed as an attempt to erode the rights of law abiding citizens and ultimately a conspiracy to revoke the right altogether.

You can only view a reasonable analysis as "double talk" because in the dialog and vacuum you live in it is an either/or proposition where buzz words trigger your responses.

And there are ways to reasonably address those loopholes being suggested, it's just people who live in the ideological religion of the firearm are so paranoid that they are unwilling to consider anything.

I don't expect you to understand me on the subject because my position is practical and not religious. I believe a law-abiding citizen has the right if not duty to reasonably defend themselves against physical harm, the means by which that individual defends him/herself should include firearms as the constitution grants the right to that individual to possess them. Pure and simple.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

This is the problem with fundamentalism, it doesn't allow for reasonable solutions as any solution that calls for stringent accountability is viewed as an attempt to erode the rights of law abiding citizens and ultimately a conspiracy to revoke the right altogether.

You can only view a reasonable analysis as "double talk" because in the dialog and vacuum you live in it is an either/or proposition where buzz words trigger your responses.

And there are ways to reasonably address those loopholes being suggested, it's just people who live in the ideological religion of the firearm are so paranoid that they are unwilling to consider anything.

I don't expect you to understand me on the subject because my position is practical and not religious. I believe a law-abiding citizen has the right if not duty to reasonably defend themselves against physical harm, the means by which that individual defends him/herself should include firearms as the constitution grants the right to that individual to possess them. Pure and simple.

Okay, I have no idea where you get my position is religious, as opposed to practical...I have never mentioned religious beliefs as my guideline for what I believe. I think I have given some damn practical ideas, and thoughts on this subject, and I repeat. PUNISH THE CRIMINALS, NOT THE LAW ABIDING! Why do you continue to tell me you have a reasonable, and practical outlook on this subject, but offer nothing more then that? You still haven't answered my question about what you consider a loophole. You just tell me how wrong I am, and how short sighted I am, but do nothing to prove your point, mainly because you won't tell me what your point even is. Really, lets stop this. Give me something more, hell...give me anything.

 

[D-rock]

And there are ways to reasonably address those loopholes being suggested, it's just people who live in the ideological religion of the firearm are so paranoid that they are unwilling to consider anything.

Considering the history of humanity, it's track record, how important the right to be armed is in a free society, and the underhanded tactics people use to try to limit that right it's one of the things where I can't really blame people for being paranoid about. It's one of the few things were people should be legitimately borderline paranoid about the issue. The slippery slope with regulating it is very real, and there are people that will implement the agenda in small steps if they have to get rid of arms. Some of the worst atrocities in history were committed by people that did them in steps so opposition to it wouldn't happen or would only happen until it's too late. That's why so many people believe we can no longer give an inch anymore. We have in the past and have gotten burned and screwed because of it, with of course no benefit to us.

Plus, you keep talking of "loopholes". I don't see too many loopholes out there. I'm interesting in hearing just what you think those loopholes are, and how you think we can actually go farther then we already have without infringing the freedoms of people that do nothing wrong to the detriment of the only means of insuring America will always be a free society. I don't see any "reasonable" things being offered and I haven't for a long time. Everything reasonable (and a lot of things way past reasonable) have already been made into law a long time ago. If you want every criminal out there to magically follow the law or if you think gun dealers should just magically get some psychic ability to tell who is a straw purchaser or some person that shouldn’t have a gun it's not going to happen. It can't happen. I refuse to give up my naturally bestowed rights because some other people might screw up out there. If guaranteeing the preservation of freedom and the ability to fight tyranny means I have to accept that every once in a great while somebody might use arms in the act of a crime and some people will get killed or hurt that otherwise might not, then so be it. The price of freedom isn't free and that's just an example of it. I'm not willing to sacrifice the future freedoms in this country so we can pretend we cam make a utopia that doesn't and will never exist.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Exactly! Not to mention, it has never before been harder to buy a gun, then it is right now. The laws on the books need to be enforced, not added to. The one thing I can think to do, is make available to private sellers, the ability to easily, and confidently, check by phone, the rights of a private buyer, to purchase a firearm.