American Indians/Native Americans

[RogueWolf]

My apologies if this topic has been discussed before, but I don't believe it has.

I just finished reading a book and writing a paper for school. The book was about Black Elk, a member of the Lakota.

What really got to me was some investigating I did after reading this book on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. Feel free to read the article, but I wanted to hightlight this...
___________________

Life in the Pine Ridge Reservation is very poor, probably easily comparable to the least developed countries of the Third World. Unemployment on the Reservation hovers around 85% and 97% live below the Federal poverty level. Average annual family income is $3,800 as of 1999. Adolescent suicide is 4 times the National average. Many of the families have no electricity, telephone, running water, or sewer. Many families use wood stoves to heat their homes. The population on Pine Ridge has among the shortest life expectancies of any group in the Western Hemisphere: approximately 47 years for males and in the low 50s for females. The infant mortality rate is five times the United States national average.


This really broke my heart. I don't want to insult anyone, but for years we have heard about the mistreatment of blacks, and racism against blacks, civil rights for blacks and on and on and on. But what about the American Indians? When do they get their rights? Why isn't there more of an outcry or even awareness of the plight of these people?

We hear all the time about religious freedom in America and that's part of what makes our country so great. Why is it then that American Indians are the only people that need a federal permit to practice their beliefs???

How do we justify forcing these people to live on some of the worst lands in the US? Does anyone think for a moment that any ethnic group (African Americans, Asians, Swedes, Mexicans, Germans...whatever) would tolerate being told today, "Ok...you get this plot of land in Nevada, and that's where you're going to live!"

Does anyone else have any thoughts/feelings on this???

 

[AFA]

Yes, the Indians were the first North Americans to get crapped on big time, and some war heroes, (like Andrew Jackson), got a lot of credit for kicking the crap out of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_jackson

This of course is equal to the struggle of black slaves on sugar plantations or the Spanish, Portugese and French kicking the crap out of Central American natives for all the gold they could steal as Conquistadors putting down whole races of people.

What have we learned from all this? Absolutely nothing, there's not a lot of money worrying about other peoples rights. :dunno:

 

[mula0207]

i think we dont hear much of an outcry from natives because they are so few of them....or perhaps they are an easy going bunch...(just hypotheses)...but yea its fucked up what happened to them...i never really thought about them that much, becuase i feel like they are integrating into the "american" culture...plus i never see one around in my neck of the woods (jersey)...i know that SMALL steps are being taken to make ammends, but i doubt that these small steps can ever be enough...for example, they get more scholarships in schools...but i feel like thats more of a pitty thing than an appology...(not trying to offend) BUT i think blacks are almost up to date on appologies and what not...yes, there is absolutely racism towards blacks more than natives...perhaps thats why the native americans are not thought of as much

 

[mula0207]

oh yea...as for the federal permit thing...i think (not sure on this) its because some of them take drugs in order to practice, like the shamman...they gotta hit the spiritul relm somehow...

 

[Philbert]

Some odd facts ...
1924 full American citizenship status granted to all Native Americans

At the time of the Indian Citizenship Act, the Dawes Severalty Act shaped U.S. Indian policy. Since 1887, the government had encouraged Native Americans to assimilate. Hoping to turn Indians into farmers, the federal government redistributed tribal lands to individuals in 160-acre allotments. Unclaimed or "surplus" land was sold, and the proceeds used to establish Indian schools where Native-American children learned reading, writing, and the domestic and social systems of white America. By 1932, the sale of both unclaimed land and allotted acreage had resulted in the loss of two-thirds of the 138 million acres Native Americans held prior to the Dawes Act.

In addition to extending voting rights to Native Americans, Congress created the Meriam Commission to asses the impact of the Dawes Act. Completed in 1928, the Meriam Report described how government policy oppressed Native Americans and destroyed their culture and society.

The poverty and exploitation resulting from the paternalistic Dawes Act spurred passage of the 1934 Indian Reorganization Act. This legislation promoted Native American autonomy by prohibiting allotment of tribal lands, returning some surplus land, and urging tribes to engage in active self-government. Rather than imposing the legislation on Native Americans, individual tribes were allowed to accept or reject the Reorganization Act. From 1934 to 1953, the U.S. government invested in the development of infrastructure, health care, and education, and the quality of life on Indian lands improved. With the aid of federal courts and the government, over two million acres of land were returned to various tribes during this period.

1950 Federal responsibility for Support of Native Americans passed to individual States.

Anyone need a lesson in Welfare State self-esteem? Or Cultural Identity Crisis of Minority Groups?
Native Americans are among some of the most lost and some of the greatest people we have...like most "groups", merely human and beset by the same crisis we all have; with a particular history that shapes their viewpoint of the world.
I have encountered some folks along the way, Souix mostly, but I have no clear understanding of life as they see it.
I hear things I don't understand, how predjudice has kept them down; I don't know anyone myself who doesn't think Native Americans are cool, and likes their cultural history.
Casinos bring in literally billions, yet thousands of Native Americans live in poverty, many through choice.
I don't get a lot of stuff in this world, maybe someone else has some real insight.
No one can tell a Native American they can't go anywhere, get any job, or rent any house/apartment...why do so many choose to stay where they are and live below the poverty level?
One thing I do know...rougewolf hasn't a clue about the situation, since no one is forcing anyone to live anywhere or go anywhere they don't want to.
My family came here from places where they lost everything and all the wealth they had was destroyed or stolen...I have no connection to those times, much more recent than the American West and the Indian Wars; we moved on in the years since then; no one loved us all that much, my people had to make it on their own and with little love from the majority of Americans; I have yet to hear a good reason why anyone should feel guilty about the situation of the Native American tribes of today.
I'm willing to listen, though...

 

[RogueWolf]

One thing I do know...rougewolf hasn't a clue about the situation, since no one is forcing anyone to live anywhere or go anywhere they don't want to.

First of all...its Roguewolf...not rougewolf.

Second, excuse me? What warranted this snipe?

Fine...maybe no one is forcing American Indians to live on the reservations now, but they were certainly forced to live there during the 1800's, often by use of the military. And once there, people became trapped in a cycle of poverty and despair, so for all practical purposes, they have no choice but to live there.

Sure, I suppose in the strictest sense no one is forcing them to live there now. Just like no one is forcing anyone to live in the Chicago projects. But the reality is, those people often have or see any means of escape.

 

[D-rock]

No one can tell a Native American they can't go anywhere, get any job, or rent any house/apartment...why do so many choose to stay where they are and live below the poverty level?

If I had to take an educated guess I would say that they consider where they live home, just like a lot of other Americans do. It's easy to say just move out. However you have to take into account that anytime somebody moves they probably will have to face different people and laws. That's probably a reason why no matter how bad Michigan gets I will never move to a place like Massachusetts or California even if their economy is terrific.

Another reason that is lost on people as to why poor people just don't move somewhere better (and I can relate to this from personal experience) is the fact it's just not easy. People forget, and I can't stress this enough, it takes recourses to move in the first place. That's why I didn't get it when some people were wondering why all the poor people didn't move away from New Orleans if conditions were that bad even before the hurricane hit. You don't just move. It doesn't work that way anymore. For starters you need a place to stay at your new location, a job that will be waiting for you or at least something you can get quickly. You need to find a way to move all your stuff. If you are moving out of a poor area your home is probably worth less than the same home in another area. If you already live in a dump then your screwed if you just try to move to a better area. You need to know things like what the crime rate is in that area, how good the schools are there, is there plentiful drinking water, how bad is the pollution, how much is the cost of living, what kind of taxes are there, what kind of neighbors will you have, what are the state and local laws like, how cold does it get and how much will you have to pay for heating, what’s the climate like and how easy is it to plant crops, what is the layout of the land and its terrain features, and will you be living out in the middle of nowhere or not. Usually the poorer you are the less chance you have of going anywhere decent and the more chance you could end up in an even worse situation.

All that isn't taken into account things like maybe you have a sick parent you have to take care of or other dependents that will keep you from moving. The poorer you are the more change things like that will end up impacting you more than somebody with more money who could just pay there way out of a problem. If you’re smart you just don’t pull up and move. Even poor people that have the ability to do their homework take significant risk in doing so.

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

Although not under any circumstances is it enough to make up for what has been done to Native Americans, I do take particular pleasure in seeing the success of Indian owned Casinos taking the White mans money and then using it to help the individual tribes. Both as a job provider and also a way to buy back some of the land stolen from them.

 

[AFA]

I'm too tired to read all of the good info in these posts, and will come back to it tommorrow. I think Clint Eastwood's portrayal of Ira Hayes at Iwo Jima showed the indian life pretty well.

 

[AFA]

If I had to take an educated guess I would say that they consider where they live home, just like a lot of other Americans do. It's easy to say just move out. However you have to take into account that anytime somebody moves they probably will have to face different people and laws. That's probably a reason why no matter how bad Michigan gets I will never move to a place like Massachusetts or California even if their economy is terrific.

Another reason that is lost on people as to why poor people just don't move somewhere better (and I can relate to this from personal experience) is the fact it's just not easy. People forget, and I can't stress this enough, it takes recourses to move in the first place. That's why I didn't get it when some people were wondering why all the poor people didn't move away from New Orleans if conditions were that bad even before the hurricane hit. You don't just move. It doesn't work that way anymore. For starters you need a place to stay at your new location, a job that will be waiting for you or at least something you can get quickly. You need to find a way to move all your stuff. If you are moving out of a poor area your home is probably worth less than the same home in another area. If you already live in a dump then your screwed if you just try to move to a better area. You need to know things like what the crime rate is in that area, how good the schools are there, is there plentiful drinking water, how bad is the pollution, how much is the cost of living, what kind of taxes are there, what kind of neighbors will you have, what are the state and local laws like, how cold does it get and how much will you have to pay for heating, what’s the climate like and how easy is it to plant crops, what is the layout of the land and its terrain features, and will you be living out in the middle of nowhere or not. Usually the poorer you are the less chance you have of going anywhere decent and the more chance you could end up in an even worse situation.

All that isn't taken into account things like maybe you have a sick parent you have to take care of or other dependents that will keep you from moving. The poorer you are the more change things like that will end up impacting you more than somebody with more money who could just pay there way out of a problem. If you’re smart you just don’t pull up and move. Even poor people that have the ability to do their homework take significant risk in doing so.

A lot of local and state governments have started to question why the statute that keeps Indian profits from casinos, tax free, is in effect as they see how much money is coming in.
Just like government. Set the conditions and then change the rules to suit. The Verrazanno Bridge in NY was supposedly going to be toll free after paying for construction costs. Maintenance would come out of taxes. How many times has that bridge been paid for? It costs, $10 a crossing? You think people would know better. Another bridge going into NY under the same terms, (excuses), for building it, has been paid for since 1939 I believe but still collects an ever rising toll.

Comedian Sam Kinison did a routine about the starving people in Africa, and ranted and screamed about why do they live where there's no food?, and why don't they move to where the food is!

Pretty clear

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Kinison

 

[Imagine]

Yeah, those ingrates just don't know how to properly appreciate all our kind offers. I mean, it's not like we've ever done anything bad to them.

Sheesh.

 

[AFA]

It's a sad commentary on human nature. I am not a Kevin Costner fan, but I thought "Dances with Wolves" was probably a pretty accurate account of how the lives of whole races are turned upside down by a dominant group bent on their own gain. Is corporate America all that different?

 

[Mayhem]

I'm going to go with the unpopular opinion. The Indians were in a war, they lost the war and that's how it goes.

With the exception of diseases like smallpox (which we had no understanding of at the time) we did not do a single thing to the various tribes that they weren't already doing to themselves. Warfare, slavery, genocide and torture were all part of the lifestyle long before the white man came to America.

We won, they lost, deal with it.

 

[ThatRedWing]

I hesitate to post in this thread because I have strong feelings on the subject. As far I'm concerned the treatment of the natives is the most embaressing chapter in American history. Slavery was deplorable but they stole from, killed and imprisoned people that just wanted to to live like their forebearers did. I could go on for a long time but I will bow out now to keep from getting angry.

 

[AFA]

I'm going to go with the unpopular opinion. The Indians were in a war, they lost the war and that's how it goes.

With the exception of diseases like smallpox (which we had no understanding of at the time) we did not do a single thing to the various tribes that they weren't already doing to themselves. Warfare, slavery, genocide and torture were all part of the lifestyle long before the white man came to America.

We won, they lost, deal with it.

I suppose the Indians felt they were being invaded, and as any gung ho guy will tell you, he will fight to the death on principal. I'm sure most people on this board would also act in a way to fight off the impending danger from killing off their families.

I saw a good documentary on what Columbus actually changed by his venture into the New World. None of it was positive for anyone other then the Europeans seeking to expand their kingdoms. From the introduction of non native flora and fauna to the introduction of disease, the Hawaiian islanders are in a similiar fight to preserve their way of life and keep native species from becoming extinct. Ferel cats and other animals are wiping out native animal populations. Hawaiians had a long fight to get the US Navy to get the ordnance off of Kahoolawee so it can be safely returned to the islanders. The Navy is now slowly working on it as they are in Vieques, P.R.



www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/vieques
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/kahoolawe

 

[hogo]

In a sense we did something good for Indian Unity...... we gave them a common enemy!

 

[member006]

Every group has their problems as does every country. Everyone needs to get over it. What was ...was that's it. No race, gender or anyone will get an apology from me for what took place one or two hundred years ago or in some cases longer. Mistakes are mistakes as long as we learn from them and move forward that's whats important in my eyes. We need to blend and move on. Our forefathers did what they deemed necessary at the time. So the land was theirs, the expansion caused from exploration of the world back then brought forth a lot. It was the sign of the times and indeed was "politically correct" back then to search for a new land. The world was a map less glorious wonder that had to be explored and populated. It is what is is now and I feel any favoritism to anyone is wrong. The United States is but one country. I respect everyone for their cultures but certainly they learned from us as well as we learned from them. It happened, can't be changed and we should all just move on.


Why does the world want everything from the past altered? Can't we just learn and change over time and leave history as just that history. My God if we venture to go back and change all "words" "traditions" and various other things that are "politically incorrect" these days we will forever be doomed to the past, never making the now and the future better. Just my :2 cents:

LL

 

[Mayhem]

I suppose the Indians felt they were being invaded, and as any gung ho guy will tell you, he will fight to the death on principal. I'm sure most people on this board would also act in a way to fight off the impending danger from killing off their families.

You misunderstand me. This is what they were doing long before the white man "invaded".

 

[AFA]

We don't learn from these traumatic events, and just repeat them all throughout history. Who or what are we screwing with now, that we'll regret later.

 

[The Captain]

Every group has their problems as does every country. Everyone needs to get over it. What was ...was that's it. No race, gender or anyone will get an apology from me for what took place one or two hundred years ago or in some cases longer. Mistakes are mistakes as long as we learn from them and move forward that's whats important in my eyes. We need to blend and move on. Our forefathers did what they deemed necessary at the time. So the land was theirs, the expansion caused from exploration of the world back then brought forth a lot. It was the sign of the times and indeed was "politically correct" back then to search for a new land. The world was a map less glorious wonder that had to be explored and populated. It is what is is now and I feel any favoritism to anyone is wrong. The United States is but one country. I respect everyone for their cultures but certainly they learned from us as well as we learned from them. It happened, can't be changed and we should all just move on.


Why does the world want everything from the past altered? Can't we just learn and change over time and leave history as just that history. My God if we venture to go back and change all "words" "traditions" and various other things that are "politically incorrect" these days we will forever be doomed to the past, never making the now and the future better. Just my :2 cents:

LL

So if you were in our ForeFather's shoes you would have done the same thing?