america's middle class is dying

[pete rose]

i love people who really "care" about the top 5% (which im sure you arent)

 

[Atar554]

Get rid of the income tax.

 

[Hot Mega]

true, and high taxes are part of the reason for the crappy economy, thats clearly obvious.

Someone else care to point out the trouble with this statement? I mean, you are aware of the Bush tax cuts which have been in place for the last decade right? Are you also aware that Obama enacted even more tax cuts and credits on top of that with the stimulus package?

in the past like in our parents and grandparents time everything was cheaper but you made less.........but you werent making 1000 a week and paying 200 in fed tax, 150 in social security, plus state and other taxes.......leaving you with not much more than 50% of what you earned.
then paying taxes on everything you buy and use.

thats why grandma didnt need to work and almost everyone with a job lived comfortably.

its no doubt that unreasonable personal and business taxes used to feed the blob (aka united states government) have contributed greatly to the problems.

Your parents and grandparents quite likely paid much higher taxes than are paid today.:2 cents:

 

[Tittyman5000]

I hate it when I call tech support & get some dude from India, or I also hate when you look at something to see where its made 99% of the time Taiwan & you know all these Mexicans are doing everything from harvesting to construction for dirt cheap :cussing: When Obama said Yes we can, did he mean give our jobs away? :dunno:
I'm just glad the price of weed has gone up, Ganja Farmers Unite! :thumbsup:

 

[meesterperfect]

Someone else care to point out the trouble with this statement? I mean, you are aware of the Bush tax cuts which have been in place for the last decade right? Are you also aware that Obama enacted even more tax cuts and credits on top of that with the stimulus package?


Your parents and grandparents quite likely paid much higher taxes than are paid today.:2 cents:

Are you employed sir?

 

[Hot Mega]

Are you employed sir?

Yes.

And what does that have to do with your claim that too much tax is the cause of the poor economy when in actuality we pay some of the lowest taxes in our country's history of taxation??

 

[meesterperfect]

no we don't, what you're saying is a complete falsehood.

 

[Hot Mega]

no we don't, what you're saying is a complete falsehood.

Change these facts....

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

 

[dongkong]

Change these facts....

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

As the graph shows tax policy changes with diff administrations. Some favor high taxes and some favor lower taxes. But at the end of the day we have to remember that taxes are not the only factor that affect the economy, they are one of many factors. Most economist agree that cutting taxes in a recession often helps to improve the economy. But again thats not the only factor that affects the economy, sometimes you can cut taxes and still get limited growth.

Also id say in one of your previous post you said president Obama cut taxes. What president obama did was give tax credits, there is a diff between tax cuts and tax credits, they are not one in the same.

 

[meesterperfect]

change the fact that middle class working people pay almost 20% of the money they earn in federal taxes.
another 5-10% in state taxes.
another 10-15 in social security which is a sick joke in itself and another 5% or so in other taxes before they even see a penny of it.
add to that taxes paid in goods and services, gasoline, taxes you pay on your water, gas, electric bills then if god forbid you own property insane property tax, 5, 10, 20 thousand a year, plus all the other taxes that have been created over the years...........and you're gonna honestly say that people pay less taxes today than ever?

can I buy some pot from you ?

make a thousand bucks get 400 stolen from you right out of the gate.
then get taxed when you spend it too.
if you own property, there goes the rest..........
and thats every week for life!
Think of what you could have done with that money?
how it could of been invested for your future.

sure if you're on welfare because you had kids you couldn't afford or you and your shyster lawyer frauded some judge who had to meet a quota and got permanent disabilty sure you pay less taxes, actually almost none.
youre sleeping late and living good, no worries
Or if you're a mega millionaire it really don't matter either but for the people who get up and go to work everyday and keep the country running theyre the ones getting punished with out of control taxes.
theyre the ones who need to work 2 jobs to survive and never get a vacation.........no life.
people didn't need to do that in the past, prior to the 90's ....And its because of high taxes more than anything, inflation second but much of the inflation is caused by high taxes anyway.

So show all the graphs you want, it doesn't amount to JACK SQUAT!
High taxes to feed the beast are whats doing the most damage.

And if you really want to see the economy rebound call a federal income tax freeze for just one year.........and boom right back on track.
but that ain't never gonna happen so its best get yourself a gun and lots of ammo instead.

 

[Trident1]

The one thing that graph doesn't show is that the level of revenue raised dating back to 1920s to the present never goes up, it simply flatlines no matter how high or low the tax rate is set.

 

[meesterperfect]

As the graph shows tax policy changes with diff administrations. Some favor high taxes and some favor lower taxes. But at the end of the day we have to remember that taxes are not the only factor that affect the economy, they are one of many factors. Most economist agree that cutting taxes in a recession often helps to improve the economy. But again thats not the only factor that affects the economy, sometimes you can cut taxes and still get limited growth.

Also id say in one of your previous post you said president Obama cut taxes. What president obama did was give tax credits, there is a diff between tax cuts and tax credits, they are not one in the same.

yeah tax cuts are less taxes for the working class.
they get to keep more of the money they earned.
tax credits are a nice big fat check of 1 - 5 grand each year to the welfare folks, to help stimulate the economy of course.
they get as a gift more money that someone else earned.
Go Obama!
I'ma vote for him come 2012.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Goodbye America
:wave:

Actually, it's goodbye Europe as well. America isn't at this point yet:

Started years ago with NAFTA and open borders... companies will do anything on the cheap if you let them. "Free trade" is an illusion and merely gained every third world country our jobs, while illegals flooded the US will cheap labor as well.

Double barrel blow to the face of the American middle class.

Exactly right.

America is going to be hit a lot harder than Europe (see above) because we are running an imperialistic-like war machine, and even if we weren't, there will still be a backlash. Only Ron Paul could even come close to saving us at this point.

Oh yeah, and kick every last illegal piece of shit out, now.

 

[dongkong]

yeah tax cuts are less taxes for the working class.
they get to keep more of the money they earned.
tax credits are a nice big fat check of 1 - 5 grand each year to the welfare folks, to help stimulate the economy of course.
they get as a gift more money that someone else earned.
Go Obama!
I'ma vote for him come 2012.

Actually the tax credit i got from the Obama stimulus was $11.

 

[Hot Mega]

As the graph shows tax policy changes with diff administrations. Some favor high taxes and some favor lower taxes. But at the end of the day we have to remember that taxes are not the only factor that affect the economy, they are one of many factors. Most economist agree that cutting taxes in a recession often helps to improve the economy. But again thats not the only factor that affects the economy, sometimes you can cut taxes and still get limited growth.

Also id say in one of your previous post you said president Obama cut taxes. What president obama did was give tax credits, there is a diff between tax cuts and tax credits, they are not one in the same.

There were credits and cut that amounted to roughly a 3rd of the stimulus.

The point of posting that graph was because it was asserted that 'high taxes' are part of the reason the economy is bad.

The graph shows as I said, we are actually paying some of the lowest marginal rates in our history.

To that the response was something about state taxes, property taxes, blah, blah, blah...which is moot since those taxes are different for different places. Some places pay no state tax for example, so again...moot.

 

[Trident1]

yeah tax cuts are less taxes for the working class.
they get to keep more of the money they earned.
tax credits are a nice big fat check of 1 - 5 grand each year to the welfare folks, to help stimulate the economy of course.
they get as a gift more money that someone else earned.
Go Obama!
I'ma vote for him come 2012.

They have no incentive to find a job if white Democrats keep the checks comin'.

 

[vodkazvictim]

Started years ago with NAFTA and open borders... companies will do anything on the cheap if you let them. "Free trade" is an illusion and merely gained every third world country our jobs, while illegals flooded the US will cheap labor as well.

Double barrel blow to the face of the American middle class.

Here I agree with this guy: Companies should be forced to do it right, by which I mean:
1: Pay taxes in the countries where they operate (IE, make stuff or sell stuff or employ people)
2: Products made using Built In Obsollescance should be made illegal and those laws should be enforced.
3:Employers operating within a country should be forced to employ labour from within that country or barred from operating in it.
4: Employers should not employ illegal immigrant labour.

If it ever came to that it would be primarily because so called conservatives can't stand the notion losing politically without threatening violence, revolution, war, etc.

Our economy could be in a complete and utter turn around, we could have the war in Afghanistan won, we can have knocked off all of AQ's top 10 to the point of them being a leaderless idea..and the U.S.A returned to being the leaders and best.

If those circumstances indicate Obama getting re-elected...ohhhh hell, this is war sayeth the G:yahooer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl:

The solution: More taxes on the middle class.

This statement confused the fuck out of me untill I read your next one.

ah fuck! All this means to me is now I'm even more stuck in my shit hole job. Actually calling the place I work for a shit hole would be a compliment...

I feel for you.

yeah and where are they going?
5% got rich, the other 95 got poor.

The big questions are why, who's fault is it and how can it be changed.

It wouldn't be as bad if it were good for the country, but it's actively BAD for the country.

We need to get industry back here in the States, get more people back to work making the shit we need for our daily lives!! Don't know how it can be done but we need to get our jobs back from China!

Yes you do. We in the UK need to do the same. With the conservatwats in power here, I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to emigrate to america if the opportunity arises. Fortunately it's not my first priority.

They have no incentive to find a job if white Democrats keep the checks comin'.

Not everybody will sit on their arse and happily collect welfare cheques. I could be on state support right now, but instead I continue working my utterly shit job while searching for other jobs.
However, I can't deny that it's a sad truth that parasites that will happily sit around on wellfare do exist.

 

[dongkong]

There were credits and cut that amounted to roughly a 3rd of the stimulus.

The point of posting that graph was because it was asserted that 'high taxes' are part of the reason the economy is bad.

The graph shows as I said, we are actually paying some of the lowest marginal rates in our history.

To that the response was something about state taxes, property taxes, blah, blah, blah...which is moot since those taxes are different for different places. Some places pay no state tax for example, so again...moot.

As far as my understanding of the stimulus goes it was more geared towards tax credits with only a min focus on actual tax cuts. And as big as a failure the stimulus was it did provide some short term boost to the economy.

Well i wouldnt say high taxes are the reason for the bad economy. But id say they can and do contribute to the lack of a sustained recovery. Like iv said before a generally accepted idea in economics is that while in a recession (or even if not in a recession), cutting taxes allows growth and recovery if in a recession.

Well a graph that showed the economic condictions along with the marginal rates in our history would have been better. This graph only shows half of the equation. I think most people know that taxes have been raised by some president's and lowered by others. That is not really a big secret, i mean during the Jimmy Carter years taxes were pretty high as you can see on the graph. But the economy was in the crapper aswell. But Reagan came in and lowered taxes and got inflation under control which lead to a pretty stable economy. So at the end of the day if we pay more or less in taxes now than we did in the 1930 is really a non issue.

As far as state taxes are concerned, i would disagree and say its not a moot point at all. State economies have an effect on the national economic outlook. The fact that diff states have diff level of taxes dosnt mean we can ignore taxes on state level and say "oh its a moot point". That is still capital that is going away from the productive spenders and going to govt agencies federal or state. For example if feds take 50 % and the state takes 50%, the next year the feds cant make the tax rate 60 % because the state is already take 50% (an extreme example but you get the point). The net result of diff taxes is the same, money the individual does not have anymore. Also as a person who lives in a state that has no state sales tax, i can tell ya we still have alot of other state taxes to pay. Tax free does not mean we dont pay any state taxes, it just means we dont pay any sales tax when we make a purchase. Also states that dont have sales tax are a very small % of the whole.

 

[vodkazvictim]

Soon there will be only rich and poor.. no more middleclass

You mean there will only be rich and poor...
and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor and poor.
Got the message yet?

 

[Hot Mega]

As far as my understanding of the stimulus goes it was more geared towards tax credits with only a min focus on actual tax cuts. And as big as failour the stimulus was it did provide some short term boost to the economy.

I didn't get into proportions. I just said they're were credits and cuts..(on top of the Bush era cuts) in and effort to further counter the notion we're paying 'high' taxes.

Well i wouldnt say high taxes are the reason for the bad economy. But id say they can and do contribute to the lack of a sustained recovery. Like iv said before a generally accepted idea in economics is that while in a recession, cutting taxes allows growth and recovery.

Okay.:dunno: The other guy did. I agree that 'high' taxes might slow a recovery.

I haven't studied this but in just briefly looking at the anecdotal evidence, results are inconclusive at best on short or long term stimulus and recovery. And that's looking at major cuts (Reagan era from 69.5 to 50%). People like to credit Reagan's cuts but it's really unclear what eventually spurred growth in his economy, his cuts or his spending.

The last decade is certainly evidence that nominal cuts didn't do much. Especially when you're borrowing to provide for them. I admit there were additional pressures on the economy (gas/oil prices, dollar devaluation, etc.) but the effect of those cuts didn't appear to have as positive impact as the negative of borrowing to sustain them.

Well a graph that showed the economic condictions along with the marginal rates in our history would have been better. This graph only shows half of the equation. I think most people know that taxes have been raised by some president's and lowered by others. That is not really a big secret, i mean during the Jimmy Carter years taxes were pretty high as you can see on the graph. But the economy was in the crapper aswell. But Reagan came in and lowered taxes and got inflation under controll which lead to a pretty stable economy. So at the end of the day if we pay more or less in taxes now than we did in the 1930 is really a non issue.

As far as state taxes are concerned, i would disagree and say its not a moot point at all. State economies have an effect on the national economic outlook. The fact that diff states have diff level of taxes dosnt mean we can ignore taxes on state level and say "oh its a moot point". That is still capital that is going away from the productive spenders and going to govt agencies federal or state. For example if feds take 50 % and the state takes 50%, the next year the feds cant make the tax rate 60 % because the state is already take 50% (an extreme example but you get the point). The net result of diff taxes is the same, money the individual does not have anymore. Also as a person who lives in a state that has no state sales tax, i can tell ya we still have alot of other state taxes to pay. Tax free does not mean we dont pay any state taxes, it just means we dont pay any sales tax when we make a purchase.

Well, I'm not stiff-arming the debate here but frankly, I didn't post the graph in order to debate the historical intricacies of our economy. Nor the effect of ancillary taxation. I posted it to back up the claim I made that we were paying some of the lowest marginal rates in our tax history. And if I'm not mistaken the lowest marginal rates of any developed country.