Best Special Forces Units?

[zell]

Russian Spetznaz.

Rumor has it that they have hands down THE most brutal training of any special forces in the world,even more so than the famed Navy SEALS training.Fatalities during training seems to be a somewhat common thing,I guess to weed out those who can't make it.

Take this for whatever it's worth(which is probably not all that much,I'll admit),but last season on the show Deadliest Warrior,they pitted two teams,5 Green Berets vs 5 Spetznaz.I didn't think that they would say it,but they decided that the Spetznaz would win.

I'm actually surprised that no one has mentioned them yet.

 

[~~whimsy~~]

Russian Spetznaz.

Rumor has it that they have hands down THE most brutal training of any special forces in the world,even more so than the famed Navy SEALS training.Fatalities during training seems to be a somewhat common thing,I guess to weed out those who can't make it.

Take this for whatever it's worth(which is probably not all that much,I'll admit),but last season on the show Deadliest Warrior,they pitted two teams,5 Green Berets vs 5 Spetznaz.I didn't think that they would say it,but they decided that the Spetznaz would win.

I'm actually surprised that no one has mentioned them yet.

Spetsnaz does go through some brutal training. They are pretty well tortured while training. Only to build up an extreme level of tolerance to pain.

I rank them pretty high up in the SPECWAR arena. Sure some say why did they get their ass kicked by Afghanistan, because America came in, they weren't ready for that.

Nowadays I would be worried if we ever got into a war with Russia. Which is why I found it to be extremely crazy idea when folks over here wanted to start a war or even threaten Russia with any kind of thought of that sort when Russia was bombing and took over Georgia.

We have an excellent military here in America. No doubt. We just have idiot politicians trying to be the military instead of letting the military be the military and do what they need to do.

Spetsnaz, though, yeah... their training is pretty damn sexy in a masochistic/sadistic loving way when you get down to it. And their methods and past are showing it :hatsoff:

I watched the show you are speaking of and that particular episode. I found it to be rather an disadvantage during the grenade part. They allowed the Green Berets an enclosed space while they gave the Spetsnaz an open space. Ah well...

 

[Hot Mega]

Russian Spetznaz.

Rumor has it that they have hands down THE most brutal training of any special forces in the world,even more so than the famed Navy SEALS training.Fatalities during training seems to be a somewhat common thing,I guess to weed out those who can't make it.

Take this for whatever it's worth(which is probably not all that much,I'll admit),but last season on the show Deadliest Warrior,they pitted two teams,5 Green Berets vs 5 Spetznaz.I didn't think that they would say it,but they decided that the Spetznaz would win.

I'm actually surprised that no one has mentioned them yet.

Spetsnaz are quite capable and again there is a tendency by general public to identify special operators in general terms. The reality is while the capabilities are fairly similar all of these organizations have different missions..even within organizations mission responsibilities of specific teams are fairly different.

Spetsnaz in general are similar to Polish GROM in mission and capabilities. The Spetsnaz Vityaz are the elite special unit though in Russian FSB.

But Vityaz aren't any more capable than SEAL DEVGRU or Delta or maybe SF A-Team "Green Berets".

 

[~~whimsy~~]

Spetsnaz are quite capable and again there is a tendency by general public to identify special operators in general terms. The reality is while the capabilities are fairly similar all of these organizations have different missions..even within organizations mission responsibilities of specific teams are fairly different.

Spetsnaz in general are similar to Polish GROM in mission and capabilities. The Spetsnaz Vityaz are the elite special unit though in Russian FSB.

But Vityaz aren't any more capable than SEAL DEVGRU or Delta or maybe SF A-Team "Green Berets".

Did somebody say



A-TEAM!!!!

http://moproblems.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/the-a-team.jpg

Couldn't help it :shy:

 

[marquis2]

Spetsnaz are quite capable and again there is a tendency by general public to identify special operators in general terms. The reality is while the capabilities are fairly similar all of these organizations have different missions..even within organizations mission responsibilities of specific teams are fairly different.

Spetsnaz in general are similar to Polish GROM in mission and capabilities. The Spetsnaz Vityaz are the elite special unit though in Russian FSB.

But Vityaz aren't any more capable than SEAL DEVGRU or Delta or maybe SF A-Team "Green Berets".

You get some idea through the selection process.Spetsnaz units were fairly large , there were far too many personnel taken in for it to be anything much more than an elite force like the old Waffen SS.
During the Irish troubles the SAS was widely acknowledged to be the best there was , a combination of ruthless combing out so that only a tiny proportion from even the toughest Para regiments were accepted and the fact that they were operating under actual combat conditions.Training, however rigorous is nothing like the real thing.
This was summed up when the Sultan of Oman chose to pay for SAS assistance when he was offered SEALS at no cost. He replied "I simply want the best"
In fact , special forces from friandly nations train with each other , US forces come to Hereford and british forces train with their American counterparts.I wouldn't like to take on any of them.

 

[Sparky Shortz]

"Major Muslim Hasan's Imam Reported Killed: Will Obama Bring Drone Up on Charges?"
(probably...)

Ms Shortz is undoubtedly referring to the Dem UberLeftie White House, where they still hate the military and want to be loved by Europe and all of Islam.
I can see where a dedicated member of the Teams, or any CIA operative, might feel a bit unsure how to proceed in some situation, not wanting to die or be castigated later by the US AG or the JAG guys...when is the Courts Martial of the SEALs who hurt Mr. Terrorist?
Anyone remember the old Bogie movie "To Have and Have Not"? He told the nasty fat guy that he was gonna tell the other bad guys to let them leave the port, now or after a lot of painful gun-whupping...and it was a shame one of the 2 guys would have to get all that pain for nothing , as one of the bad guys would surely do the deed and end his pistol-whupping.
Like waterboarding, only simpler and more direct.
No more of that stuff, now we gotta ask nicely...

Nice job answering my questions...you hit the nail on the head!! Thanks :thumbsup:

 

[Hot Mega]

You get some idea through the selection process.Spetsnaz units were fairly large , there were far too many personnel taken in for it to be anything much more than an elite force like the old Waffen SS.
During the Irish troubles the SAS was widely acknowledged to be the best there was , a combination of ruthless combing out so that only a tiny proportion from even the toughest Para regiments were accepted and the fact that they were operating under actual combat conditions.Training, however rigorous is nothing like the real thing.
This was summed up when the Sultan of Oman chose to pay for SAS assistance when he was offered SEALS at no cost. He replied "I simply want the best"
In fact , special forces from friandly nations train with each other , US forces come to Hereford and british forces train with their American counterparts.I wouldn't like to take on any of them.

Spetsnaz but not Spetsnaz Vityaz.

What I'm telling you is what you generally hear about SO in general tells you nothing of the elite units within each individual organization. Deltas and Navy SEAL DEVGRU (Formerly SEAL Team 6) are not spoken of at all....

Frankly, you wouldn't know how to compare capabilities in that case and certainly not someone who is obviously an expert on the subject such as some Sultan who likely doesn't need to be cajoled into wasting money in the first place.

Also, no military special operator is qualified without having teamed in an actual op that I know of. They are all frocks until then...You don't get a SEAL Trident just for completing Tadpole and BUDS training.

 

[jasonperez]

Navy Seals but especially their elite squad DEVGRU are feared all over the world.

 

[D-rock]

What more would you like for them to do ?

I'm just pointing out something that I think is a fact, nothing more or less. I just find that their portrayal in movies, books, and just the public perception of them is often far greater than the reality.

Once in a very great while you will come across an exceptional individual (Even then a lot of their exceptionalness is often because of inborn talent or training that wasn't done by the military.) but as for the elite units altogether there comes a point where the added abilities they have are only marginally greater than most of other people in the military. When you take a lot of the technological gadgets away from them it's even that much closer.
There are some people out there that for some reason almost view them as almost superhuman and it’s very far from the truth.

 

[redpaint]

Spetsnaz all the way.

 

[Hot Mega]

I'm just pointing out something that I think is a fact, nothing more or less. I just find that their portrayal in movies, books, and just the public perception of them is often far greater than the reality.

Once in a very great while you will come across an exceptional individual (Even then a lot of their exceptionalness is often because of inborn talent or training that wasn't done by the military.) but as for the elite units altogether there comes a point where the added abilities they have are only marginally greater than most of other people in the military. When you take a lot of the technological gadgets away from them it's even that much closer.
There are some people out there that for some reason almost view them as almost superhuman and it’s very far from the truth.

D-Rock aren't all movie depictions of everything stylized? Special operators are though flesh and blood like everyone else.....but to say they are merely or marginally more capable than the average soldier is not accurate at all.

 

[marquis2]

Spetsnaz but not Spetsnaz Vityaz.

What I'm telling you is what you generally hear about SO in general tells you nothing of the elite units within each individual organization. Deltas and Navy SEAL DEVGRU (Formerly SEAL Team 6) are not spoken of at all....

Frankly, you wouldn't know how to compare capabilities in that case and certainly not someone who is obviously an expert on the subject such as some Sultan who likely doesn't need to be cajoled into wasting money in the first place.

Also, no military special operator is qualified without having teamed in an actual op that I know of. They are all frocks until then...You don't get a SEAL Trident just for completing Tadpole and BUDS training.

My point was made relative to the Irish situation-the Special Forces were under actual combat risk for weeks at a time.Some of these were from non British forces because of regular exchange training between units (British personnel were in Vietnam on the same basis) but the bulk of the work fell onto the SAS and SBS which were greatly sharpened by the experience.
At around this time the US special forces had been embarrassed in Iran and the SAS had been seen on TV successfully dealing with the Iranian Embassy siege

 

[Rey C.]

"Major Muslim Hasan's Imam Reported Killed: Will Obama Bring Drone Up on Charges?"
(probably...)

Ms Shortz is undoubtedly referring to the Dem UberLeftie White House, where they still hate the military and want to be loved by Europe and all of Islam.
I can see where a dedicated member of the Teams, or any CIA operative, might feel a bit unsure how to proceed in some situation, not wanting to die or be castigated later by the US AG or the JAG guys...when is the Courts Martial of the SEALs who hurt Mr. Terrorist?
Anyone remember the old Bogie movie "To Have and Have Not"? He told the nasty fat guy that he was gonna tell the other bad guys to let them leave the port, now or after a lot of painful gun-whupping...and it was a shame one of the 2 guys would have to get all that pain for nothing , as one of the bad guys would surely do the deed and end his pistol-whupping.
Like waterboarding, only simpler and more direct.
No more of that stuff, now we gotta ask nicely...

Oh. I had no idea that members of the U.S. Special Forces were that sensitive to political change. I thought they were tough, and dedicated to protecting this nation, willing to sacrifice themselves for their comrades and their fellow citizens, if need be - no matter what. The elite of the elite. The truest of the true. But, according to you and Ms. Shortz, they're really not much more than glorified, modern day versions of the Praetorian Guard. It's unfortunate that you hold our Special Forces in such low disregard.

Hmm, if what you're claiming is true (which I don't believe it is ), I guess I'd have to change my answer. If your characterization is accurate, maybe those Russian dudes really are the world's best bad asses.

Call me an idealist. But I guess I just have more faith and undying belief in my country's ability to withstand any storm than some people. :dunno:


"The only easy day was yesterday!"

That doesn't strike me as the motto of men who fold up like a cheap tent in a light breeze. YMMV.

 

[copeo]

Best of the best?

1. Special Operative Units from Mossad (Israel)
2. Navy Seals (US)
3. GSG-9 (Germany)

 

[drf]

Aside what I have read and the movies I have seen I really don't know shit about the Military. But being a major James Bond fan I would have to go to with the British Special Air Service. :thumbsup:

 

[Philbert]

Oh. I had no idea that members of the U.S. Special Forces were that sensitive to political change. I thought they were tough, and dedicated to protecting this nation, willing to sacrifice themselves for their comrades and their fellow citizens, if need be - no matter what. The elite of the elite. The truest of the true. But, according to you and Ms. Shortz, they're really not much more than glorified, modern day versions of the Praetorian Guard. It's unfortunate that you hold our Special Forces in such low disregard.

Hmm, if what you're claiming is true (which I don't believe it is ), I guess I'd have to change my answer. If your characterization is accurate, maybe those Russian dudes really are the world's best bad asses.

Call me an idealist. But I guess I just have more faith and undying belief in my country's ability to withstand any storm than some people. :dunno:


"The only easy day was yesterday!"

That doesn't strike me as the motto of men who fold up like a cheap tent in a light breeze. YMMV.

You always seemed smarter that that...you really think that any units operate independently of the White House, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff? The President is CIC, and if he wants no overt violence or public killing of terrorists in their homes, say...then it doesn't happen. PC for the new "World Loves America Now" thing...
The enemy's rank and file are 3rd world ignorant superstitious Holy Warriors who die for the glory of Islam...what they see as a sign of weakness is, in their eyes, weakness. They are heartened by a bowing American President who seems to want the Islamic world to like him, and that is pussy times 2.
We're leaving real soon (Islamic victory!) and we're real sorry for all the mean things we've done...we'll try to be nicer in the future. Etc., etc...
I was so not surprised on Sept.11, 2001 when I saw a 2nd plane had hit the other tower.
I had been waiting for years for some heavy shit to hit the US, and there it was. And more will come...Bush and Cheney only kept them out for a few years, they haven't gone away or quit.
I got lots of respect for our warriors...they time and again have their hands tied due to one current political theory or another...none of which comes from the respective heads of the Services, but from the CIC and Congress.

 

[Rey C.]

You always seemed smarter that that...you really think that any units operate independently of the White House, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff? The President is CIC, and if he wants no overt violence or public killing of terrorists in their homes, say...then it doesn't happen. PC for the new "World Loves America Now" thing...

I don't recall saying anything about any branch or unit within the U.S. military operating independently of the Executive branch. Where did you pick that up? I was commenting on yours and Sparky's claim that "the extreme level of dedication, precision and support technology of our US special forces has been nullified by the current political administration" because "a dedicated member of the Teams, or any CIA operative, might feel a bit unsure how to proceed in some situation, not wanting to die or be castigated later by the US AG or the JAG guys..."


And our special forces are typically involved in covert, not overt missions.

Anyway...

Charts on the number of US airstrikes inside Pakistan per yer, the frequency of strikes in 2008 and 2009, the number of deaths in 2008 and 2009, a distribution of strikes by tribal agencies, and the territories targeted.

In 2009, the frequency of Predator strikes in Pakistan has continued to trend upwards. There have already been 31 Predator strikes in Pakistan this year (as of July 18) – nearly matching the total of 36 strikes for all of 2008.

If airstrikes continue at the current rate, the number of strikes in 2009 could more than double the dramatic increase in Predator activity seen in 2008.
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/07/us_predator_strikes_3.php


Both of you are fully entitled to your shared opinion. It's just that I happen not to agree with you. And considering the premise of your argument, the data doesn't seem to agree with you either.

The enemy's rank and file are 3rd world ignorant superstitious Holy Warriors who die for the glory of Islam...what they see as a sign of weakness is, in their eyes, weakness. They are heartened by a bowing American President who seems to want the Islamic world to like him, and that is pussy times 2.
We're leaving real soon (Islamic victory!) and we're real sorry for all the mean things we've done...we'll try to be nicer in the future. Etc., etc...
I was so not surprised on Sept.11, 2001 when I saw a 2nd plane had hit the other tower.
I had been waiting for years for some heavy shit to hit the US, and there it was. And more will come...Bush and Cheney only kept them out for a few years, they haven't gone away or quit.
I got lots of respect for our warriors...they time and again have their hands tied due to one current political theory or another...none of which comes from the respective heads of the Services, but from the CIC and Congress.

The same Bush/Cheney team that apparently ignored intelligence which suggested a terrorist attack on the U.S. was imminent... TWO MONTHS before it happened?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/30/AR2006093000282.html

Yep, thank goodness those boys & girls were playing for our team. Without them, we probably would have never caught Osama bin Laden. Oh... wait a minute... :1orglaugh

But as I said, no one has yet presented any empirical data which suggests anything negative has happened on a scale that would (actually) nullify "the extreme level of dedication, precision and support technology of our US special forces." So again, I have no problem with people having opinions which differ from my own. But to paraphrase something Deming and others have said for years, "an opinion without data... is just an opinion."

 

[Philbert]

I don't recall saying anything about any branch or unit within the U.S. military operating independently of the Executive branch. Where did you pick that up? I was commenting on yours and Sparky's claim that "the extreme level of dedication, precision and support technology of our US special forces has been nullified by the current political administration" because "a dedicated member of the Teams, or any CIA operative, might feel a bit unsure how to proceed in some situation, not wanting to die or be castigated later by the US AG or the JAG guys..."


And our special forces are typically involved in covert, not overt missions.

Anyway...

Charts on the number of US airstrikes inside Pakistan per yer, the frequency of strikes in 2008 and 2009, the number of deaths in 2008 and 2009, a distribution of strikes by tribal agencies, and the territories targeted.

In 2009, the frequency of Predator strikes in Pakistan has continued to trend upwards. There have already been 31 Predator strikes in Pakistan this year (as of July 18) – nearly matching the total of 36 strikes for all of 2008.

If airstrikes continue at the current rate, the number of strikes in 2009 could more than double the dramatic increase in Predator activity seen in 2008.
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/07/us_predator_strikes_3.php


Both of you are fully entitled to your shared opinion. It's just that I happen not to agree with you. And considering the premise of your argument, the data doesn't seem to agree with you either.




The same Bush/Cheney team that apparently ignored intelligence which suggested a terrorist attack on the U.S. was imminent... TWO MONTHS before it happened?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/30/AR2006093000282.html

Yep, thank goodness those boys & girls were playing for our team. Without them, we probably would have never caught Osama bin Laden. Oh... wait a minute... :1orglaugh

But as I said, no one has yet presented any empirical data which suggests anything negative has happened on a scale that would (actually) nullify "the extreme level of dedication, precision and support technology of our US special forces." So again, I have no problem with people having opinions which differ from my own. But to paraphrase something Deming and others have said for years, "an opinion without data... is just an opinion."

Reread the post...I think you are purposefully missing clear position statements to make your points seem lucid.You have "data', but not real point proving data...
You have data showing that Cheney was actually doing sidework for the CIA and ignored specific date that said who and what was going down 2 months before 911? And he didn't go in and do the wet work with some agents? Wasn't he the VP and not doing any field work for the intelligence agencies? No...
The article you linked to shows how you are cherrypicking your info, then presenting it as fact...not really correct, but little snippets that are, by themselves, true.
As in ..."(the CIA) acknowledged that some of it was uncertain "voodoo"
..."(the CIA) did not know when, where or how"
..."(the CIA admitted) there was no conclusive, smoking-gun intelligence"
..."As they all knew, a coherent plan for covert action against bin Laden was in the pipeline"
So...you characterize a "maybe" type warning with no specifics as "the same Bush/Cheney team that apparently ignored intelligence which suggested a terrorist attack on the U.S. was imminent... TWO MONTHS before it happened?
Yet I'll bet you think no WMD in Iraq is proof of a plot by Bush to go to war for personal reasons, and they lied about the intel...same thing as here, only you're trying to turn a CYA action by the CIA into Bush/Cheney just ignored intel on the attack.
Bush was right in his assessment...President Bush had said he didn't want to swat at flies.
Like SECState Rice said " Rice responded in an interview that "what we did in the eight months was at least as aggressive as what the Clinton administration did in the preceding years."
They did what was possible for the head of the US government at the time; the intel needed to be better as there was a lot available at the time, as we all found out much later. Hindsight showed the ball had been dropped by Clinton and to a lesser extent by Bush. The group had been in the US for months before the planned attack...
NO ONE ignored any intel showing an attack was happening...that's just BS squared.

 

[D-rock]

D-Rock aren't all movie depictions of everything stylized? Special operators are though flesh and blood like everyone else.....but to say they are merely or marginally more capable than the average soldier is not accurate at all.

All the ones I have known or known about I haven't been that impressed with. :dunno:

 

[marquis2]

I would have to go with the SAS...but surely you should start with the SOE during WW2.

SOE weren't really Special Forces , they were very brave men and women sent to organise resistance to Germany but not expected to get involved directly in combat.

The idea of Special Forces is as old as military history , the Spartans used them for example.The first as we understand them nowadays was the SAS which operated independently in the Western Desert in WW2 and later became a much more select almost secret group.Its later success depended upon the most rigorous selection (admissions being almost in single figures) possible. Even though they were taken from a very highly trained professional army very,very few get selected.They have been in continuous action around the world and are generally considered to be at the top of their profession. It's the SAS which trained units like GSG-9 etc.and many other countries SFs are modelled on them.
http://www.whodareswins.com/