Capitalism: A Love Story

[Facial_King]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

If the point of his movie is that capitalism is "evil", then he's not only wrong but a hypocrite. But I'll wait until I see it to render judgement. I won't pay for it though, that would just give MM extra cash for more food, and I'm trying to look out for his health.

Your 1st sentence seriously compromises how seriously I can take your 2nd sentence.

Also, please try to make a (compelling? valid?) case that it would be hypocritical for Moore to describe capitalism as evil. By this sort of (tired, twisted) logic, the only people who could critique Stalin's gulags would be those who died in them.

Hey, let's go watch the documentary about capitalism made by the homeless guy who lives under the bridge! (No way, why would I want to watch a movie made by a pathetic loser like that!)

I'm never impressed when a lib or lefty attacks Limbaugh on his weight (not saying that it isn't a temptation, though - I'm human!!), so the same applies when someone substitutes similar ad hominem attacks for valid, substantive criticism.

 

[thinger]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

As much as I agree with a lot of Michael Moore's positions in his films, I really don't need to see another fat man with a megaphone harassing secretaries and security guards for an hour and a half. It's cheap and ultimately the only thing it helps is his ego.

 

[CunningStunts]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Your 1st sentence seriously compromises how seriously I can take your 2nd sentence.

Also, please try to make a (compelling? valid?) case that it would be hypocritical for Moore to describe capitalism as evil. By this sort of (tired, twisted) logic, the only people who could critique Stalin's gulags would be those who died in them.

Hey, let's go watch the documentary about capitalism made by the homeless guy who lives under the bridge! (No way, why would I want to watch a movie made by a pathetic loser like that!)

I'm never impressed when a lib or lefty attacks Limbaugh on his weight (not saying that it isn't a temptation, though - I'm human!!), so the same applies when someone substitutes similar ad hominem attacks for valid, substantive criticism.

First off, I'm sure he's not a poor man, so when a guy who has plenty of money attacks "capitalism" I call them a hypocrite. They make their money through the same freedom of choice in the market place they call "evil." If that' isn't the very definition of hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

Second, it was a joke, I didn't mean it seriously. And I did recall PLENTY of people on Rush's case when he was addicted to pain pills, by the same people who try to start programs to help drug addicts. And for the record, I can't stand Rush either...

 

[Facial_King]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

First off, I'm sure he's not a poor man, so when a guy who has plenty of money attacks "capitalism" I call them a hypocrite. They make their money through the same freedom of choice in the market place they call "evil." If that' isn't the very definition of hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

Second, it was a joke, I didn't mean it seriously. And I did recall PLENTY of people on Rush's case when he was addicted to pain pills, by the same people who try to start programs to help drug addicts. And for the record, I can't stand Rush either...

There's nothing hypocritical about winning a game but noticing and pointing out the flaws in the rules of the game, where they exist.

By your approach, you'd have to call Bill Gates Sr's (that's Bill Gates's dad) participation in this group to be hypocritical:

http://www.faireconomy.org/issues/responsible_wealth

They're criticizing much of the status quo, even that which they have, in all likelihood, benefitted from!

Also, what if someone won the lottery and then made a film critiquing capitalism - would that be okay by you?

 

[CunningStunts]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Also, what if someone won the lottery and then made a film critiquing capitalism - would that be okay by you?

A more appropriate analogy would be a lottery winner criticizing the existence of the lottery.

 

[Facial_King]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

A more appropriate analogy would be a lottery winner criticizing the existence of the lottery.

Right, but whereas one can choose to play or not play the lottery, it's all but impossible to opt-out of the capitalist system.

So, I'm wondering who COULD, in America, make a film critical of capitalism, and avoid your charge of hypocrisy.

Moore's first (relatively "major") film - Roger and Me - could easily be interpreted as critical of capitalism, even if (and that is an IF) he never mentioned the system by name. And he was far from wealthy when he made that one. I guess he should have just made his current film FIRST (which of course, would have almost surely consigned him to a lifetime of obscurity in film, as it would be seen as too wild, too fringe for a mainstream audience - the advantage he has now is that he can make the films he wants and push them through) and now just be smoking cigars, doing guest spots on Hannity, and making Canadian Bacon, to avoid any of your so-called hypocrisy.

:dunno:

 

[CunningStunts]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Right, but whereas one can choose to play or not play the lottery, it's all but impossible to opt-out of the capitalist system.

So, I'm wondering who COULD, in America, make a film critical of capitalism, and avoid your charge of hypocrisy.

Probably not... maybe if they lived in a commune and donated all of their money evenly to all of the other people there...

Capitalism is based on economics. And actually, we have modified capitalism in the US and most of the world now, not true capitalism.

 

[thinger]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Probably not... maybe if they lived in a commune and donated all of their money evenly to all of the other people there...

Capitalism is based on economics. And actually, we have modified capitalism in the US and most of the world now, not true capitalism.

"True" capitalism never has existed, and never will. It's not a force of nature. It's an entirely arbitrary human construction. It doesn't have a 'pure form'.

 

[titsrock]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

This guy could make that film...
Senator Bernie Sanders--VT

 

[Facial_King]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Probably not... maybe if they lived in a commune and donated all of their money evenly to all of the other people there...

Capitalism is based on economics. And actually, we have modified capitalism in the US and most of the world now, not true capitalism.

Huh? So even if someone won a lottery - which is simply an organized game of chance that is in no way intrinsically tied to capitalism - they couldn't make a film critical of capitalism without being hypocritical? Ok, now I'm really baffled.

See here (no, really, it's quite interesting):
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...GQKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-ksDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4698,2664162

and here (an actual Soviet lottery ticket):
http://www.scottwinslow.com/pop.php?f=/item_images/lt-0009.jpg

:dunno:

 

[titsrock]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

and here (an actual Soviet lottery ticket):
http://www.scottwinslow.com/pop.php?f=/item_images/lt-0009.jpg

:dunno:

:eek: My Gawd...that looks EXACTLY like the brand new dollar bills that Komrade Obamainsky is going to introduce soon.....

 

[Facial_King]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

"True" capitalism never has existed, and never will. It's not a force of nature. It's an entirely arbitrary human construction. It doesn't have a 'pure form'.

Yes, what it would look like seems fairly frightening.

Could businesses do whatever without any rules or regulations whatsoever?

Could the most smartest, most cunning businessman eventually just own everything (Ted Turner's been on that path with real estate!) ??

 

[Jagger69]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Jagger69, I have to say, I'm surprised at you!

Well, that's ok. I like to surprise people. I have to give MM the benefit of the doubt after my initial reaction (which was totally genuine....can't help it, it's what crossed my mind)....especially if he donates to proceeds from the film to charity. That would place a nice exclamation point on his theme.

 

[Facial_King]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Well, that's ok. I like to surprise people. I have to give MM the benefit of the doubt after my initial reaction (which was totally genuine....can't help it, it's what crossed my mind)....especially if he donates to proceeds from the film to charity. That would place a nice exclamation point on his theme.

Sorry, I'm NOT trying to be argumentative, but to me, part of the PROBLEM with capitalism is that it creates a scenario where the only way some human needs get met is via charity. This or that problem will never be solved unless this or that mega-rich person (someone much richer than Moore, honestly) decides to invest billions here or there - and even THEN, it won't truly be solved.

I think giving the proceeds to charity would only be putting his seal of approval on the insidious logic of neoliberal capitalism. Now THAT I might call hypocritical (if I was feeling especially cynical that day)....

I appreciate your genuine reaction, though - honestly.

 

[CunningStunts]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Sorry, I'm NOT trying to be argumentative, but to me, part of the PROBLEM with capitalism is that it creates a scenario where the only way some human needs get met is via charity. This or that problem will never be solved unless this or that mega-rich person (someone much richer than Moore, honestly) decides to invest billions here or there - and even THEN, it won't truly be solved.

I think giving the proceeds to charity would only be putting his seal of approval on the insidious logic of neoliberal capitalism. Now THAT I might call hypocritical (if I was feeling especially cynical that day)....

I appreciate your genuine reaction, though - honestly.

Isn't that the whole point? Government run programs to "help" people that can't help themselves are basically forced charity, and I for one do not think that is ethical.

If basing the worth of goods and service on the market (supply and demand) isn't "good", then what is the alternative? Do you really want the government setting prices? That's been tried in a lot of places, and that has never worked...

 

[Facial_King]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Isn't that the whole point? Government run programs to "help" people that can't help themselves are basically forced charity, and I for one do not think that is ethical.

If basing the worth of goods and service on the market (supply and demand) isn't "good", then what is the alternative? Do you really want the government setting prices? That's been tried in a lot of places, and that has never worked...

Government compels us to do all sorts of things. It comes with what we call civilization. We're leaving behind "every man for himself and all against all" - and taking a "we're in this together" approach, at least to some extent. Personally, I would rather be compelled to support effective government programs than say, compelled to support an immoral, counterproductive war.

I can think of bigger ethical travesties than being compelled to help others out.

 

[jasonk282]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Uh, anyway...

Like I said before..since being stupid is a choice their education level is irrelevant IMO. The fact that they are drop outs maybe a further indication of their stupidity but as it stands they are merely uneducated and stupid.

It doesn't take formal education for someone to be entertaining to those who identify with their level of thought. It really doesn't take much to grab the attention of people who are passionate about some things but not at all deep enough to think for themselves. Those types of people like to be spoon-fed what they think they want to hear....it's really not rocket science.

What defies logic though IMO is the fact that these people never get the gimmick and eventually move on. I personally don't understand how some can listen to someone insult their intelligence day in a day out with obvious fabrications and misrepresentations and not be moved to abandon such malarkey.
I guess though that would presuppose some of these people own a certain degree of intelligence to begin with.

This quote is #101 in the glenn Beck thread talking about his being a college drop out and stupity makes him appeal to certian people. YET Michale Moore is ALSO a college drop out of the university of Michgan.

"After four months at Mother Jones, Moore was fired. Matt Labash claims this was for refusing to print an article by Paul Berman that was critical of the Sandinista human rights record in Nicaragua. Moore refused to run the article believing it to be inaccurate. "The article was flatly wrong and the worst kind of patronizing bullshit. You would scarcely know from it that the United States had been at war with Nicaragua for the last five years". Berman described Moore as a "very ideological guy and not a very well-educated guy"

HotMega seems that Moore can also be put into the same catagory as Beck, Hannity and Rush. MM is the lefts version of Beck and Hannity combined.

 

[CunningStunts]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Government compels us to do all sorts of things. It comes with what we call civilization. We're leaving behind "every man for himself and all against all" - and taking a "we're in this together" approach, at least to some extent. Personally, I would rather be compelled to support effective government programs than say, compelled to support an immoral, counterproductive war.

I can think of bigger ethical travesties than being compelled to help others out.

The greatest harm can come from trying to do the most good. Ever heard of the expression "The path to hell is paved with good intentions?"

I very much understand what the US Government is supposed to be doing, and better yet NOT doing. The Founders wrote the US Constitution to embody the social contract theory of Locke and Hobbes and create a limited government, and that document was SUPPOSED to bind and limit it's power. The government exists ONLY to ensure we have the freedom to live our lives out of a "state of nature" and to be as free to pursue our own interests as possible. They understood that when the government becomes too large and gains too much power, for whatever the reasons, tyranny is sure to follow... it always has and will.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.” Patrick Henry

 

[iv6789]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Moore's films are always rife with half-truths and misleading information. Every single one of them. This coming from a self-described liberal and journalist. As much as his ultimate goal is usually meaningful, but when your argument is full of holes, how can you be taken seriously.

Farenheit 9/11 was probably the worst of them all.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-In-Fahrenheit-911.htm

 

[meesterperfect]

Re: Capitalism: A Love Story -- by Michael Moore

Always good to engage in discussion with clear-minded adults!

Ok , I'm sorry.
I should have said look how fucking fat and ugly he is.
I think thats pretty clear,no?

how ironic, using capitalism to get rich by by saying how evil it is.
its like going on tv to denounce the evil of tv.
but i'm happy for mikey, he worked hard, followed his dreams and made alot of money.
the american dream, something he couldn't have done in cuba or venezuela.