Definition of Honor (stemmed from 9/11 tribute thread)

[Marlo Manson]

Ok to those that are saying that these ceremonies, tributes, memorials, dedications, remembrances, are not sincere or not appropriate, then what do we do to commemorate such events or sacrifices, all the people that are honored or remembered for whatever they did?

Do we just ignore these events that changed our lives? do we not remember the dead, do we not pay tribute to people who paid the ultimate price (In most cases they sacrificed their lives for us) they went far beyond serving there country or our counry?

If were not sincere with our way we pay tribute in honoring these people, events and instead they are deemed inappropriate, meaningless, & disrespectful, exactly how do we remember these people & events?

Do we ignore all the things that happened, do we turn our backs on these people that tirelessly defended our rights & safety? In that case we are just a bunch of arrogant, ungrateful, selfish people who, continue living, benefiting from the fruits of labor & sacrafice these people paid & to change, defend, guarantee our lives are safe, & rights are being protected, fought for, and defended?

Do we instead, just say Ok so its done & over with, lets forget & move on? :dunno: I am and I am sure others are not able to dechipher the points some of you devils advocates are trying too point out in our remembering or honoring of peoples & events. really what are you trying to point out or convey?

 

[Hot Mega]

Not exactly. I think that most memorials to honor someone or a group of people are more or less selfish. I think a lot of people do it to feel better about themselves so they can say, hey look @ me, I'm honoring him/her/them. Also, the difference with me and most people is that most people define honoring someone by doing what they think it is that honors them. I believe that honoring someone is doing what that person would've wanted you to do to honor him or her.

As for why I said none of us but the ones who knew the victims can truly honor them is because you can't know for sure if you're really honoring them. I'll give you an example. It could very well be that one or some of the victims of 9/11 were of the opinion that big expensive memorials are a money waisting shameless show of selfishness so by doing what you think honors them you could actually be dishonoring him/her/them by doing the exact opposite of how they would want to be honored. That's also why I said that we can honor them generically as a group of people but honoring the unique individuals is reserved solely for those who knew them because how you honor someone by definition varies from person to person precisely because we are all unique.

Jagger even made my point when he said


He said he can honor people with whom he has no personal relationship and uses those who were @ the beaches of Normandy as an example but what he actually does is honor their actions.

I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between honoring someones actions and honoring the person.

My grandfather for example was a resistance fighter during WWII who @ the end fought along side American troops. He also saved some of their lives by providing them with valueable information. You can honor his dedication, patriotism, sacrifice and bravery but only his family (wich includes me ofcourse) and friends can honor the person he was.

With that logic you're on a merry-go-round IMO (self-contradicting, circular point)... In logical terms, how on earth else can you posthumously honor someone if not for how you chose based on what you believe is a befitting commemoration????

It may well be based on what you know of them or simply what you believe is respectfully commensurate, in either case because the individual isn't there to decide for themselves (unless they left specific instructions) you're deciding for them.:2 cents:

 

[busenbust]

Ok to those that are saying that these ceremonies, tributes, memorials, dedications, remembrances, are not sincere or not appropriate, then what do we do to commemorate such events or sacrifices, all the people that are honored or remembered for whatever they did?

Do we just ignore these events that changed our lives? do we not remember the dead, do we not pay tribute to people who paid the ultimate price (In most cases they sacrificed themselves) they went far beyond serving there country?

If were not sincere with our way we pay tribute in honoring these people & events & they are deemed inappropriate, meaningless, disrespectful, how do we remember these people & events?

Do we ignore all the things that happened, do we turn our backs on these people that tirelessly defended our rights & safety? In that case we are just a bunch of arrogant, ungrateful, selfish people who, continue living, benefiting from the fruits of labor & sacrafice these people paid & to change, defend, guarantee our lives are safe, & rights are being protected, fought for, and defended?

Do we instead, just say Ok so its done & over with, lets forget & move on? :dunno: @ the points some of you devils advocates are trying too question our remembering or honoring of peoples & events. really what are you trying to point out or convey?

:thumbsup:Can't say it better than that, so I won't. We don't owe those people who lost their lives anything tangible. But - surely - we owe them our respect, and on each yearly observance our mark of respect. Not a lot to ask IMO.:2 cents:

 

[JacknCoke]

Thanks for making a separate thread about this, J&C.

You're welcome.

I've said enough you all know how I feel and can read the Miriam-Webster definition for yourself at the top of the 1st page.

 

[jasonk282]

Not exactly. I think that most memorials to honor someone or a group of people are more or less selfish. I think a lot of people do it to feel better about themselves so they can say, hey look @ me, I'm honoring him/her/them. Also, the difference with me and most people is that most people define honoring someone by doing what they think it is that honors them. I believe that honoring someone is doing what that person would've wanted you to do to honor him or her.

As for why I said none of us but the ones who knew the victims can truly honor them is because you can't know for sure if you're really honoring them. I'll give you an example. It could very well be that one or some of the victims of 9/11 were of the opinion that big expensive memorials are a money waisting shameless show of selfishness so by doing what you think honors them you could actually be dishonoring him/her/them by doing the exact opposite of how they would want to be honored. That's also why I said that we can honor them generically as a group of people but honoring the unique individuals is reserved solely for those who knew them because how you honor someone by definition varies from person to person precisely because we are all unique.

Jagger even made my point when he said


He said he can honor people with whom he has no personal relationship and uses those who were @ the beaches of Normandy as an example but what he actually does is honor their actions.

I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between honoring someones actions and honoring the person.

My grandfather for example was a resistance fighter during WWII who @ the end fought along side American troops. He also saved some of their lives by providing them with valueable information. You can honor his dedication, patriotism, sacrifice and bravery but only his family (wich includes me ofcourse) and friends can honor the person he was.

Of course we are not honoring each individual, we are honoring them as a collective group. Just like when the Vets have their Rolling Thunder parade, they are honoring ALL who served in Vietnam, not just a specific person. And we are infact honoring the 9/11 bravery(police and FF who ran into the buildings), patroitism, scarifice(everyone that perished) and dedication(NYFD and NYPD).

Also here in Pittsburgh a few months ago we had 3 police officers gunned down and police from all over the nation came to HONOR these officers. They do not personally know them but they showed up. each citizen bought t-shirts HONORING the officers.

 

[Mrs Jolly]

I don't want to get caught up in too much of what has already been posted, 9/11 was/is an extraordinary event and will likely always be reacted to in a bold manner. There was an understandably strong reaction to the horror and I must admit in some ways it created a pressure to conform. As an example, baseball games had "God Bless America" introduced into them. No doubt with the best of intentions, but it began to feel slightly oppressive. There was ample opportunity to exhibit national pride at the start of the game when the national anthem was played. The crowd have a long enough memory and don't need reminding six innings later.

It became one of those things where you could discuss it one on one with friends but you couldn't mention it in a group as to merely point it out was to be seen as some sort of traitor.

The USA is a patriotic country and demonstrations of that patriotism will at times seem unusually fierce to some european sensibilities. (I sometimes get looked at when I don't join in for the Star Spangled Banner.) As someone who has spent half my life in one place and half in the other I know all about this. I'll never forget going to see my children in a pageant. The house lights went down the whole audience turned to face one side of the stage where a flag was displayed in a spotlight and the room recited the pledge of allegience in unison. I had never been in a room where this had happened. I can't tell you how foreign I felt. This is not a criticism. As someone else rightly pointed out, places are different and thank god for that.

 

[jasonk282]

I don't want to get caught up in too much of what has already been posted, 9/11 was/is an extraordinary event and will likely always be reacted to in a bold manner. There was an understandably strong reaction to the horror and I must admit in some ways it created a pressure to conform. As an example, baseball games had "God Bless America" introduced into them. No doubt with the best of intentions, but it began to feel slightly oppressive. There was ample opportunity to exhibit national pride at the start of the game when the national anthem was played. The crowd have a long enough memory and don't need reminding six innings later.

It became one of those things where you could discuss it one on one with friends but you couldn't mention it in a group as to merely point it out was to be seen as some sort of traitor.

The USA is a patriotic country and demonstrations of that patriotism will at times seem unusually fierce to some european sensibilities. (I sometimes get looked at when I don't join in for the Star Spangled Banner.) As someone who has spent half my life in one place and half in the other I know all about this. I'll never forget going to see my children in a pageant. The house lights went down the whole audience turned to face one side of the stage where a flag was displayed in a spotlight and the room recited the pledge of allegience in unison. I had never been in a room where this had happened. I can't tell you how foreign I felt. This is not a criticism. As someone else rightly pointed out, places are different and thank god for that.

Great post, pretty much sums it all up.

 

[Boothbabe]

The USA is a patriotic country and demonstrations of that patriotism will at times seem unusually fierce to some european sensibilities. (I sometimes get looked at when I don't join in for the Star Spangled Banner.) As someone who has spent half my life in one place and half in the other I know all about this. I'll never forget going to see my children in a pageant. The house lights went down the whole audience turned to face one side of the stage where a flag was displayed in a spotlight and the room recited the pledge of allegience in unison. I had never been in a room where this had happened. I can't tell you how foreign I felt. This is not a criticism. As someone else rightly pointed out, places are different and thank god for that.

I once saw a documentary about North Korea. About half way in they were filming in a room with patients waiting to see one of the few doctors. There was a picture of Kim Jong Il on the wall and people randomly got on their knees in front of his picture and started to chant how they love their great leader and that they will gladly die for him. Ofcourse they had been indoctrinated from birth and kept in line with fear. Now America isn't North Korea but after reading your post I'm nonetheless reminded of those images in that documentary.

 

[georges]

My uncle who lives in TX gave me the definition of honor: "A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check Made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in This country who no longer understand it." I think he was and is right.

 

[JacknCoke]

I don't want to get caught up in too much of what has already been posted, 9/11 was/is an extraordinary event and will likely always be reacted to in a bold manner. There was an understandably strong reaction to the horror and I must admit in some ways it created a pressure to conform. As an example, baseball games had "God Bless America" introduced into them. No doubt with the best of intentions, but it began to feel slightly oppressive. There was ample opportunity to exhibit national pride at the start of the game when the national anthem was played. The crowd have a long enough memory and don't need reminding six innings later.

It became one of those things where you could discuss it one on one with friends but you couldn't mention it in a group as to merely point it out was to be seen as some sort of traitor.

The USA is a patriotic country and demonstrations of that patriotism will at times seem unusually fierce to some european sensibilities. (I sometimes get looked at when I don't join in for the Star Spangled Banner.) As someone who has spent half my life in one place and half in the other I know all about this. I'll never forget going to see my children in a pageant. The house lights went down the whole audience turned to face one side of the stage where a flag was displayed in a spotlight and the room recited the pledge of allegience in unison. I had never been in a room where this had happened. I can't tell you how foreign I felt. This is not a criticism. As someone else rightly pointed out, places are different and thank god for that.

Great post thanks for this!:thumbsup:

 

[Jagger69]

Not exactly. I think that most memorials to honor someone or a group of people are more or less selfish. I think a lot of people do it to feel better about themselves so they can say, hey look @ me, I'm honoring him/her/them. Also, the difference with me and most people is that most people define honoring someone by doing what they think it is that honors them. I believe that honoring someone is doing what that person would've wanted you to do to honor him or her.

As for why I said none of us but the ones who knew the victims can truly honor them is because you can't know for sure if you're really honoring them. I'll give you an example. It could very well be that one or some of the victims of 9/11 were of the opinion that big expensive memorials are a money waisting shameless show of selfishness so by doing what you think honors them you could actually be dishonoring him/her/them by doing the exact opposite of how they would want to be honored. That's also why I said that we can honor them generically as a group of people but honoring the unique individuals is reserved solely for those who knew them because how you honor someone by definition varies from person to person precisely because we are all unique.

Jagger even made my point when he said


He said he can honor people with whom he has no personal relationship and uses those who were @ the beaches of Normandy as an example but what he actually does is honor their actions.

I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between honoring someones actions and honoring the person.

My grandfather for example was a resistance fighter during WWII who @ the end fought along side American troops. He also saved some of their lives by providing them with valueable information. You can honor his dedication, patriotism, sacrifice and bravery but only his family (wich includes me ofcourse) and friends can honor the person he was.

You're arguing semantics. I honor the troops who fought on the beaches of Normandy as a group, not just their actions, but them as an actual group of people. I don't need to be personally acquainted with someone to be able to honor them.

In your world, evidently there can be no honor given unless you had a personal relationship with the individual(s) being so "honored". If so, there's a huge difference in the way we look at it and, after all this wrangling over this issue, I don't suppose there will be a consensus. I can live with that.

Jason put it very well in this post:

Of course we are not honoring each individual, we are honoring them as a collective group. Just like when the Vets have their Rolling Thunder parade, they are honoring ALL who served in Vietnam, not just a specific person. And we are infact honoring the 9/11 bravery(police and FF who ran into the buildings), patroitism, scarifice(everyone that perished) and dedication(NYFD and NYPD).

Also here in Pittsburgh a few months ago we had 3 police officers gunned down and police from all over the nation came to HONOR these officers. They do not personally know them but they showed up. each citizen bought t-shirts HONORING the officers.

In Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia there is a hallowed memorial that is called The Tomb of the Unknowns. This marble monument is a mausoleum containing the bodies of unidentified American soldiers from WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam. There is an inscription carved into the monument that reads Here Rests In Honored Glory An American Soldier Known But To God. There is a 24-hour guard that is assigned to sentry duty at the monument that is a detachment of the 3rd U.S. Infantry. This detachment is referred to as The Honor Guard.

No one (actually they did actually identify the soldier from Vietnam but that belies the point of the monument) knows who these soldiers are and yet we unquestionably honor them for who they were and who they represent.

I cannot think of a better example than this.

I once saw a documentary about North Korea. About half way in they were filming in a room with patients waiting to see one of the few doctors. There was a picture of Kim Jong Il on the wall and people randomly got on their knees in front of his picture and started to chant how they love their great leader and that they will gladly die for him. Ofcourse they had been indoctrinated from birth and kept in line with fear. Now America isn't North Korea but after reading your post I'm nonetheless reminded of those images in that documentary.

These 2 scenarios have nothing in common. One is based on fear and intimidation, the other on a voluntary spirit of national pride.

 

[Hot Mega]

I once saw a documentary about North Korea. About half way in they were filming in a room with patients waiting to see one of the few doctors. There was a picture of Kim Jong Il on the wall and people randomly got on their knees in front of his picture and started to chant how they love their great leader and that they will gladly die for him. Ofcourse they had been indoctrinated from birth and kept in line with fear. Now America isn't North Korea but after reading your post I'm nonetheless reminded of those images in that documentary.

Although some examples of "indoctrination" are obviously perversions, the concepts of indoctrination weave together the very fabric of things like social order, patriotism, faithfulness, duty, honor, morality and on, and on and on....

You're again, confusing one word for another....the concept and behavior you're criticizing is an example of idolatry. Now indoctrination to a degree may be the vehicle that gets you there in some cases but what you cite is not a raw example of an "indoctrination".

Any patriot of their nation ought to have an indoctrination as to why they believe in and are willing to uphold or in some cases fight for their sovereignty and way of life. Otherwise, what is the impetus or purpose for all of those men to lay down their lives in WWII and other wars???

 

[Boothbabe]

These 2 scenarios have nothing in common. One is based on fear and intimidation, the other on a voluntary spirit of national pride.

I know that. Did I not say

Now American isn't North Korea

I was just suddenly reminded of that documentary.

(one could argue it's not completely voluntary but that's something for another topic )

 

[Jagger69]

I know that. Did I not say

I was just suddenly reminded of that documentary.

No...you really didn't say that. You said "Now America isn't North Korea but after reading your post I'm nonetheless reminded of those images in that documentary.". I took that as drawing some sort of analogy. My bad if that was not your intention.

(one could argue it's not completely voluntary but that's something for another topic )

We can discuss that here as far as I am concerned. From my experience, it is absolutely and completely voluntary. I have been to many events where people choose not to stand and recite the pledge. Or, they may stand but not recite, nor put their hand on their heart. At many functions where the national anthem is played, especially sporting events, I'd say it's about 50/50 the number of people who stand and participate as opposed to those who are walking around totally oblivious to everything, trying to find their seats, buying beer or hot dogs, talking on their cell phones or to seatmates, going to the bathroom,....etc, etc.

There may be peer pressure to participate but that happens all the time with lots of group activities, not just with pledges and national anthems.