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Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of War

Facial_King

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Pretty powerful stuff. And Greenwald's right, the Marine's entire 4-page letter is worth reading, too:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/10/27/afghanistan/index.html

Excerpt:

Top civilian in southern province argues we're exacerbating the problem we're supposedly there to solve
By Glenn Greenwald

(updated below)

Matthew Hoh, a former Marine captain with combat experience in Iraq, resigned last month from his position with the Foreign Service, where he was the the senior U.S. civilian in the Taliban-dominated Southern Afghanistan province of Zabul, because he became convinced that our war in that country will not only inevitably fail, but is fueling the very insurgency we are trying to defeat. Hoh's resignation is remarkable because it entails the sort of career sacrifice in the name of principle that has been so rare over the last decade, but even more so because of the extraordinary four-page letter (.pdf) he wrote explaining his reasoning.

Hoh's letter should be read in its entirety, but I want to highlight one part. He begins by noting that "next fall, the United States' occupation will equal in length the Soviet Union's own physical involvement in Afghanistan," and contends that our unwanted occupation combined with our support for a deeply corrupt government "reminds [him] horribly of our involvement in South Vietnam." He then explains that most of the people we are fighting are not loyal to the Taliban or driven by any other nefarious aim, but instead are driven principally by resistance to the presence of foreign troops in their provinces and villages.

How long are we going to continue to do this? We invade and occupy a country, and then label as "insurgents" or even "terrorists" the people in that country who fight against our invasion and occupation. With the most circular logic imaginable, we then insist that we must remain in order to defeat the "insurgents" and "terrorists" -- largely composed of people whose only cause for fighting is our presence in their country. All the while, we clearly exacerbate the very problem we are allegedly attempting to address -- Terrorism -- by predictably and inevitably increasing anti-American anger and hatred through our occupation, which, no matter the strategy, inevitably entails our killing innocent civilians. Indeed, does Hoh's description of what drives the insurgency -- anger "against the presence of foreign soldiers" -- permit the conclusion that that's all going to be placated with a shift to a kind and gentle counter-insurgency strategy?
 

titsrock

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

Maybe someone will give Obama a copy of this resignation letter, and he will finally do the right thing and bring our troops home.
 

Friday on my mind

Pain heals, chicks dig scars, Freeones lasts forever
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

I read where the opponent to Karzai is now refusing to participate in the re-run of the election.And Karzai's brother is being named as one of the major players in the drug trade.As in vietnam we have hitched ourselves to some very corrupt types.

Really can't add much to what the marine says.

Time to leave as he says,we are accomplishing nothing but more hate for us.
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

Maybe someone will give Obama a copy of this resignation letter, and he will finally do the right thing and bring our troops home.

The people who orchestrated the attacks on 9/11 are still out there plotting to attack again....possibly a more devastating attack. What should we do about that?
 

Rattrap

Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

The people who orchestrated the attacks on 9/11 are still out there plotting to attack again....possibly a more devastating attack. What should we do about that?

But why are they planning another attack? Why 9/11 in the first place?

This is probably the fourth or fifth time I've recommended this book and while I'm sure there are many others along the same lines, this just happens to be the one I found most interesting: Dying to Win by Robert Pape. Among other things, it paints a pretty solid picture that the primary fuel for terrorism is foreign occupation. We've been mucking around in the Middle East for decades now.

It also shows that when foreign occupation is taken out of the picture, public support falls quickly - without public support, terrorism is greatly hindered, far more effectively than our military might can achieve.
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

But why are they planning another attack? Why 9/11 in the first place?

This is probably the fourth or fifth time I've recommended this book and while I'm sure there are many others along the same lines, this just happens to be the one I found most interesting: Dying to Win by Robert Pape. Among other things, it paints a pretty solid picture that the primary fuel for terrorism is foreign occupation. We've been mucking around in the Middle East for decades now.

It also shows that when foreign occupation is taken out of the picture, public support falls quickly - without public support, terrorism is greatly hindered, far more effectively than our military might can achieve.

:confused::confused::confused:

Whatever the reason-de jour they chose to cite nowadays....they did it and for that they need to be held accountable and prevented from attempting such attacks in the future to the extent we can prevent them.

Neither the US' nor any country's policies should be held hostage by the dictates of criminal cabals at the threat of violent, unprovoked attacks when they have no recognized authority in those policies.

What next?? They don't like the fact that Americans even talk to leaders in the Middle East???

It's nonsensical to think you can cow-tow to the whims of deranged, violent criminals to secure some modicum of "security".

Forget the so called "occupation" of Afghanistan...we're not there to "occupy" that state...we're there because the government which did control that country harbored the criminal syndicate which carried out attack after attack after attack on the US, her interests and her allies.

We have unprecedented control over the region that they operate in.....now it's a safe bet that the prosecution of this war has been botched for years and our recent setbacks reflect that neglect. However, how are we supposed to strategically target these people with a few operations here and there when we've been doing that for years and haven't broken their backs??

We need a coherent, dutiful, sustained, coordinated plan to strangle and eliminate this threat while we're there now.

Not "bring our troops home" for the sake some juvenile, misguided anti-war sentiment. That will just have us burying more American civilians at some point in the future.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

defeatism like this is condemnable. Also if you think that withdrawing troops and letting the talibans take the control of this region will make things better than they were, then you are the most mediocre geostrategist I have ever seen.
 

HELLRAISER

Looking to go where no FreeOnes member has gone before!
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

The people who orchestrated the attacks on 9/11 are still out there plotting to attack again....possibly a more devastating attack. What should we do about that?

As long as we're paying our troops to illegaly immigrate, invade, raid, intimidate, occupy, arrest, terrorize, torture and rape the natives of the Middle East in order to rip them off for U.S. corporate imperialists, you better believe that these Arab patriots are not only going to swing back instead of turn the cheek because they have every right to fight back and defend themselves from foreign invaders by any means necessary. I'm sure if Arabs sent their armies to invade, terrorize, intimidate and rape Americans on American soil for the corporate interests of their country, you'd probably be plotting a devastating attack especially if they butchered members of your family for no justifiable reason
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

As long as we're paying our troops to illegaly immigrate, invade, raid, intimidate, occupy, arrest, terrorize, torture and rape the natives of the Middle East in order to rip them off for U.S. corporate imperialists, you better believe that these Arab patriots are not only going to swing back instead of turn the cheek because they have every right to fight back and defend themselves from foreign invaders by any means necessary. I'm sure if Arabs sent their armies to invade, terrorize, intimidate and rape Americans on American soil for the corporate interests of their country, you'd probably be plotting a devastating attack especially if they butchered members of your family for no justifiable reason

Some of that is valid with respect to Iraq. But AQ doesn't have that gripe.

And again, whatever their gripe is...they have orchestrated the killing of thousands of Americans. At some point someone needs to make them pay, right?:dunno:
 

HELLRAISER

Looking to go where no FreeOnes member has gone before!
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

Some of that is valid with respect to Iraq. But AQ doesn't have that gripe.

And again, whatever their gripe is...they have orchestrated the killing of thousands of Americans. At some point someone needs to make them pay, right?:dunno:

Understanding the gripe is esential if you care to understand why they have retaliated against our invading armies. Our taxpayers money was wasted in funding, training, arming Saddam Hussein, Al Queda and the Taliban and to this day we are paying for the mistake our corporate owned government is making in nation building in Arab countries.
 

Boothbabe

I eat, sleep, and live FreeOnes!
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

defeatism like this is condemnable. Also if you think that withdrawing troops and letting the talibans take the control of this region will make things better than they were, then you are the most mediocre geostrategist I have ever seen.

The only thing I can say is :georges:
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

Understanding the gripe is esential if you care to understand why they have retaliated against our invading armies. Our taxpayers money was wasted in funding, training, arming Saddam Hussein, Al Queda and the Taliban and to this day we are paying for the mistake our corporate owned government is making in nation building in Arab countries.

I understand all of what their gripes are. The question is, how do you respond when people who have no recognized authority to do so, murder thousands of people and are continuing to do more of it.

Our past policies are what they are..we can't run away from that but I don't think a reasonable solution is to allow criminals to hold whatever policy we engage in hostage at the threat of killing innocent civilians.

They are hell bent on killing Americans and are at war with us and we're now at war with them.

There is only two ways to win a war with against an enemy bent on killing you, play zero sum and kill your enemy until they are no more or encircle them to force capitulation.
 

Facial_King

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

The military needn't be involved. Our various alphabet soup of intelligence can monitor them down to every time they pick their nose. Those within our legal reach can be prosecuted for conspiracy to commit terrorism, others can be dealt with in precision fashion, as the need arises (and no, I'm not necessarily speaking of or endorsing state-sponsored assassinations).

The military presence is only serving to make more terrorists.
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

The military needn't be involved. Our various alphabet soup of intelligence can monitor them down to every time they pick their nose. Those within our legal reach can be prosecuted for conspiracy to commit terrorism, others can be dealt with in precision fashion, as the need arises (and no, I'm not necessarily speaking of or endorsing state-sponsored assassinations).

The military presence is only serving to make more terrorists.

I suppose the $64k question is, in 6 or 7 years why hasn't that worked so far?

One could certainly argue the military approach hasn't worked but any fair assessment would demonstrate the military effort under the previous administration was all but non existent (as compared to what it needed to be).
 

titsrock

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

The people who orchestrated the attacks on 9/11 are still out there plotting to attack again....possibly a more devastating attack. What should we do about that?

Is this your audition tape for a spot next to Hannity on Faux News?:rolleyes:

I think Dumbya put "the people who orchastrated 9/11" in Gitmo, along with a bunch of possibly innocents who we certainly can't release now because they will try to retaliate against us.

Osama is either dead or severely restricted to what, filming a tape and sending it out on some camel somewhere to be uploaded from some coffeebar in Pakistan?

He doth not seem to be the capable leader anymore...:dunno:

If we leave the middle east, the worst thing that will happen to Americans is that a few KFCs in Bagdad will go up in flames. I can live with that.

Besides, we can always monitor things from satellites and our Turkish base.

And we can always do what we're supposed to do according to the 9/11 Commission's report about securing the country. They gave what 23 things to do and Dumbya did 6 of them??

Leaving the Middle East does not mean running up the white flag against Terrorism. It means we consolidate our money, power and resources and come up with a new plan.....
 

Facial_King

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

I suppose the $64k question is, in 6 or 7 years why hasn't that worked so far?

One could certainly argue the military approach hasn't worked but any fair assessment would demonstrate the military effort under the previous administration was all but non existent (as compared to what it needed to be).

Except that your $64K question isn't a clear question.

Except for the anthrax attacks in DC, there hasn't been a sizeable terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11. So, if the War on Terror, and the various battles we're fighting in that war, "hasn't worked so far," what exactly would you consider to be "working"?

Also, what I talked about - using intelligence and prosecuting terrorists within the existing national and international criminal justice framework - was assuming that we wouldn't simultaneously be undermining our own efforts by invading and occupying predominantly Muslim countries and pissing people off and inspiring new batches of terrorists on a regular basis. So, saying that it hasn't worked, when really it hasn't been TRIED, isn't exactly fair.

:2 cents::2 cents:
 

Hot Mega

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

Is this your audition tape for a spot next to Hannity on Faux News?:rolleyes:

I think Dumbya put "the people who orchastrated 9/11" in Gitmo, along with a bunch of possibly innocents who we certainly can't release now because they will try to retaliate against us.

Osama is either dead or severely restricted to what, filming a tape and sending it out on some camel somewhere to be uploaded from some coffeebar in Pakistan?

He doth not seem to be the capable leader anymore...:dunno:

If we leave the middle east, the worst thing that will happen to Americans is that a few KFCs in Bagdad will go up in flames. I can live with that.

Besides, we can always monitor things from satellites and our Turkish base.

And we can always do what we're supposed to do according to the 9/11 Commission's report about securing the country. They gave what 23 things to do and Dumbya did 6 of them??

Leaving the Middle East does not mean running up the white flag against Terrorism. It means we consolidate our money, power and resources and come up with a new plan.....

Except that your $64K question isn't a clear question.

Except for the anthrax attacks in DC, there hasn't been a sizeable terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11. So, if the War on Terror, and the various battles we're fighting in that war, "hasn't worked so far," what exactly would you consider to be "working"?

Also, what I talked about - using intelligence and prosecuting terrorists within the existing national and international criminal justice framework - was assuming that we wouldn't simultaneously be undermining our own efforts by invading and occupying predominantly Muslim countries and pissing people off and inspiring new batches of terrorists on a regular basis. So, saying that it hasn't worked, when really it hasn't been TRIED, isn't exactly fair.

:2 cents::2 cents:

I seriously have to jump off...but I will definitely address both of these when I log back on....
 

Facial_King

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

Let me be clear though. I DON'T think the War on Terror IS working, but it is true we haven't had another attack IF you exclude the anthrax attacks (killed a few, I believe) and a handful of other small-scale domestic terrorist attacks (primarily right-wing - I'm thinking the security guard shot in DC and of course those Unitarians shot in their church by a wingnut who wrote a manifesto against liberals).

But if one is saying that a particular approach (whatever it may be) "hasn't worked" then I presume you're evaluating the effectiveness of the War on Terror in preventing terrorist attacks. Therefore, if no fundamentalist Muslims have successfully pulled off an attack, then either they're just planning their next (a distinct possibility) or they're being held off successfully.

I DON'T think the military approach will prevent future attacks. I think intelligence and focused criminal justice approaches will work.

But of course, I'm assuming that the War on Terror solely exists to prevent attacks and protect American civilians, and that it provides no front for other activities, or contains no ulterior motives. I also assume that I'm naive, bordering on stupid, on that one...
 

jasonk282

Banned
Re: Fmr. Marine Capt. & Foreign Service Worker in Afghanistan Resigns in Protest of W

There is only two ways to win a war with against an enemy bent on killing you, play zero sum and kill your enemy until they are no more or encircle them to force capitulation.

Indeed, the only problem is that Obama will not authorize the tropp levels untill after the run off election that Abdula Abdula just dropped out, leaving only one guy. So i guess we are going to have to wait for another election untill Obama signs on for McChrystal's troop level.

Unfortunally we can not do either (zero sum or capitulation) at our current troop levels.
 
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