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Genetic map of Europe

Wow! This is gonna be contentious :D

Nice link delta :thumbsup:
 

deltaoscarbravo

Private Messages; please send me some!
I think the only real conclusion that one may draw is that Europe is a complete mix of different genetic basis.

Except for Finland, according to that map, all European nations are a mix of different genetic makeups.
 

deltaoscarbravo

Private Messages; please send me some!
^Italy also 'outside' the mix??


Yeah, Italy too.

Which is strange, given that the Roman empire conquered the known world
from Gaul (France) to Philistina (Palestine) to North Africa (Libya).
The racial mix of the peoples across all those territories is very diverse - yet modern Italy appears to have it's own specific DNA makeup!

The Roman empire lasted for centuries - people from the captured regions did integrate with Romans - therefore you assume that modern Italy would have a composite DNA mix.
Apparently not!
 

SonOfSparda

Would take a bullet for Freeones
^Italy also 'outside' the mix??

Looks like Italy as a whole genetically is mixed with Spain, Portugal and Romania.

Can totally understand the UK's genetics, we were fought over by the northern europe countries like Norway and Netherlands, self explanatory really.
 

sproing99

I'm so great I'm jelous of myself.
The Finnish are "peculiar" - what a shock ;)
 

robbied196

FreeOnes is pumping through my veins!
Kind of along the same lines, this link is interesting for finding the meaning of, and geographical base for your surname. Its going to be world wide eventually but only UK based at the mo http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/
 

neighborboy

FreeOnes turned me straight!
I'm guessing that one of the reasons Finland looks so strange is because Russia isn't on the chart.
 

TunnelOfLove

We will be full of patience Mr Freeones!
I'm guessing that one of the reasons Finland looks so strange is because Russia isn't on the chart.

I don't know about the genetics but finns and russians don't look the same at all.

There's lot of russians here (in finland) and I can easily spot them in crowd, because of their "russian look". :tongue:
 

sproing99

I'm so great I'm jelous of myself.
That one is telling me that my name came from australia, does that mean couple hundred years ago my family came from a criminal who's family moved back to the UK... Now that would be interesting.

Nah, just that your branch of the family is the one that evaded justice while the rest were justifiably transported
 

Shindekudasai

If I had a my Freeones account, I would have just gotten 25 points!
Yeah, Italy too.

Which is strange, given that the Roman empire conquered the known world
from Gaul (France) to Philistina (Palestine) to North Africa (Libya).
The racial mix of the peoples across all those territories is very diverse - yet modern Italy appears to have it's own specific DNA makeup!

The Roman empire lasted for centuries - people from the captured regions did integrate with Romans - therefore you assume that modern Italy would have a composite DNA mix.
Apparently not!

That's one of the things that troubled me the most about the conclusions the geneticists are drawing here.
If you take a look at DE1, DE2, IT1 and IT2 for example.
In the ancient world, Germany has always been a problem for the Roman empire. Southwest Germany (or at least different parts of Germania inferior) for example was conquered by the Romans and then lost to German tribes of Germania libera (mostly Germania Superior) several times. That's why the famous fortified Roman border, the Limes, was running through southwest Germany. But at one point in time, Trier even was a "Kaiserstadt" (imperial city), which means that it was full of Romans for quite some time. Why is there no genetic overlap between Italy (IT1 and IT2) and southern Germany (D2)? I mean, of course, not all Roman soldiers stationed in Germany were Italians or even Romans, but no overlap at all?
And of course there would be a difference between DE1 and DE2. Take a look at where the samples were taken. DE1 is in an area, that through the whole course of German history had hardly anything to do with the area of D2. That's like going to the US and comparing samples from Boston with samples from San Diego. It's highly likely, that (depending on your sample) you could come to the conclusion, that Boston could as well be a town in Germany, whereas San Diego could be a mixture between Spain, Oceania and Mexico. D1 lies in an area that always had it's quarrels with the Vikings or with Denmark, that was protected or ruled by Prussia (Up ewig ungedeelt) and so forth, while D2 was more concerned with their role in European policy, had numerous battles with the French or the Russians through the course of history, mixed with Austrian and Czech royalty etc.
And why is there only one sample from France? The French are a prime example of genetic mixture in Europe. The Goths, the Arabs, the Turks, the Spanish, they all were in southwestern France, but never in the northeast for example were the Vikings, the English, the Germans have been on several occasion. I mean, it even shows in their language to this day.


I'd say either the sample base they used was probably not very representative or accurate, or the genetix mixtures created by the Roman Empire, the Migration period, the Kingdom of the Franks, the Holy German Empire, and so on were all wiped out since the beginning of the age of nation states with its new rules and laws on borders, citizenship, immigration, marriage etc.
But I'd go with the first one to 80% and the second one to 20%. Because that's what happens, when you let a bunch of natural scientists run wild on their own without any historians or political scientists giving them input.
'Oh my God! We went to America, took a sample and made a projection. And we found out, that more than half of the United States are either poor, impovered, poorly educated or even criminals. And about 70% are black or hispanic!' 'Well, where is you sample from?' 'We calculated a random place and it said, take your sample in the Bronx.' (I don't mean to be judgmental here. So please, nobody take the "overstated" Bronx example the wrong way.)
 

marquis2

If I had a my Freeones account, I would have just gotten 25 points!
That's one of the things that troubled me the most about the conclusions the geneticists are drawing here.
If you take a look at DE1, DE2, IT1 and IT2 for example.
In the ancient world, Germany has always been a problem for the Roman empire. Southwest Germany (or at least different parts of Germania inferior) for example was conquered by the Romans and then lost to German tribes of Germania libera (mostly Germania Superior) several times. That's why the famous fortified Roman border, the Limes, was running through southwest Germany. But at one point in time, Trier even was a "Kaiserstadt" (imperial city), which means that it was full of Romans for quite some time. Why is there no genetic overlap between Italy (IT1 and IT2) and southern Germany (D2)? I mean, of course, not all Roman soldiers stationed in Germany were Italians or even Romans, but no overlap at all?
And of course there would be a difference between DE1 and DE2. Take a look at where the samples were taken. DE1 is in an area, that through the whole course of German history had hardly anything to do with the area of D2. That's like going to the US and comparing samples from Boston with samples from San Diego. It's highly likely, that (depending on your sample) you could come to the conclusion, that Boston could as well be a town in Germany, whereas San Diego could be a mixture between Spain, Oceania and Mexico. D1 lies in an area that always had it's quarrels with the Vikings or with Denmark, that was protected or ruled by Prussia (Up ewig ungedeelt) and so forth, while D2 was more concerned with their role in European policy, had numerous battles with the French or the Russians through the course of history, mixed with Austrian and Czech royalty etc.
And why is there only one sample from France? The French are a prime example of genetic mixture in Europe. The Goths, the Arabs, the Turks, the Spanish, they all were in southwestern France, but never in the northeast for example were the Vikings, the English, the Germans have been on several occasion. I mean, it even shows in their language to this day.


I'd say either the sample base they used was probably not very representative or accurate, or the genetix mixtures created by the Roman Empire, the Migration period, the Kingdom of the Franks, the Holy German Empire, and so on were all wiped out since the beginning of the age of nation states with its new rules and laws on borders, citizenship, immigration, marriage etc.
But I'd go with the first one to 80% and the second one to 20%. Because that's what happens, when you let a bunch of natural scientists run wild on their own without any historians or political scientists giving them input.
'Oh my God! We went to America, took a sample and made a projection. And we found out, that more than half of the United States are either poor, impovered, poorly educated or even criminals. And about 70% are black or hispanic!' 'Well, where is you sample from?' 'We calculated a random place and it said, take your sample in the Bronx.' (I don't mean to be judgmental here. So please, nobody take the "overstated" Bronx example the wrong way.)

The Romans routinely enlisted soldiers from one region to serve in another.Legions were often transferred through quite large distances so the effect on the genetic makeup of Europe would be difficult to judge.
 

Shindekudasai

If I had a my Freeones account, I would have just gotten 25 points!
The Romans routinely enlisted soldiers from one region to serve in another.Legions were often transferred through quite large distances so the effect on the genetic makeup of Europe would be difficult to judge.
Well, to quote myself:
I mean, of course, not all Roman soldiers stationed in Germany were Italians or even Romans, but no overlap at all?
But we're not talking about a period of five years here, we're talking about centuries. Of course it would be difficult to judge, but no overlap between D2 and I1 and I2 at all is at least as unlikely as an overlap of say 50%.

Don't think it was necessasy to quote my rather large posting just to point out something I said in different words. ;)
 
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