Lost Religion!

[Jagger69]

I strongly disagree.

Atheism is, purely by definition of the word, the absence of religion. I suppose the confusion here is really the difference between "believing there is no God", and "not believing there is a God". The former could mislead one to think that their "belief" is, as you suggest, also a religion. The later excludes that possibility.

If someone asked you about unicorns, would you say "I believe there are no unicorns", or would it be more honest to say "I do not believe in unicorns"? These are two different answers. Nobody disbelieves in unicorns purely as a matter of personal faith. If you believe that unicorns do not exist, then may I say that you a member of the "No unicorns" religion? Is it a matter of faith that unicorns do not exist? Can I come along to your non-unicorn church with you tomorrow?

Sorry to correct you but atheism is not defined as the "absence of religion" but rather as the disbelief in the existence of a deity (a.k.a. God) or the doctrine that there is in fact no deity. Webster agrees with me:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/atheism

Your unicorn analogy is incongruent with the discussion since no one, to the best of my knowledge, is espousing unicorns as being come sort of deity. If there were (or, if you have knowledge of such a sect somewhere) then, yes, the fact that I might choose to disbelieve in the existence of unicorns as deities would absolutely qualify me as an atheist as viewed by that sect. The fact that I might consider it of no importance to ponder whether or not unicorns were deities would make me an agnostic. It is the fact that the belief (or disbelief) in the being or beings in question as deities that makes it a religious debate.

 

[Jagger69]

That's NOT true.

Atheism lacks every one of the characteristics of religion. At most, atheism doesn’t explicitly exclude most of them, but the same can be said for almost anything. Thus, it’s not possible to call atheism a religion. It can be part of a religion, but it can’t be a religion by itself. They are completely different categories: atheism is the absence of one particular belief while religion is a complex web of traditions and beliefs.

I won't even bother getting into details about "strong atheism" and "weak atheism".

That said:
Love that quote...

cheers,
R. (a member of the "Atheist in a foxhole" club)

See definition #4 here Roughneck:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion

"a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"

Any atheist I ever met ardently and faithfully believed that there is no God. Therefore, atheism qualifies as a religion according to the definition.

Great discussion.....!!

 

[niptuck]

Religion is, as Marx said, the "opiate of the masses" and is largely bullshit designed by those in power to dominate its citizenry. Anyway, congratulations on your new-found liberation and resulting peace of mind.

:glugglug:

Just a quick note. As a former member of the Communist state I should point out that this particular quote is often used in an abridged version. Marx actually said: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people". Lenin further added: "When the people are in trouble they turn to it".

If you read into it Marx meant that religion is not a cause of oppression, but its consequence.

Anyways, just to be pedantic.

Garissonjj, were you Amish or something? no offense

 

[Jagger69]

Just a quick note. As a former member of the Communist state I should point out that this particular quote is often used in an abridged version. Marx actually said: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people". Lenin further added: "When the people are in trouble they turn to it".

If you read into it Marx meant that religion is not a cause of oppression, but its consequence.

Anyways, just to be pedantic.

Garissonjj, were you Amish or something? no offense

Touche. I should have qualified that quote as a paraphrase as well. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Nester6]

Just a quick note. As a former member of the Communist state I should point out that this particular quote is often used in an abridged version. Marx actually said: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people". Lenin further added: "When the people are in trouble they turn to it".

If you read into it Marx meant that religion is not a cause of oppression, but its consequence.

Anyways, just to be pedantic.

Garissonjj, were you Amish or something? no offense

I was a catholic raised to feel guilty and always need fuckin forgiveness.

 

[freeryan]

It's really religions fault for creating fear and failling it's former fallowers. That doesn't mean that there's nothing to believe in. To me alot of people use Atheism as a way to not feal guilty about anything anymore. Some things religion says are sins are really retarted but that's them it has nothing to do with what I believe. But I do believe in God and think it(not him/her) for a great life. When people lose faith over someone elses' misfortune it's important to remember that they're life is they're life and instead of getting mad at God, go help that person because that person troubles could be a test of the person you are. To rap up knowing that something is watching you and testing you isn't to scare you it's to make up for any conciouse you may not have by being atheistic.

 

[freeryan]

I'm sorry but I gotta reply to my idiotic comment. Yeah it's old but I don't wanna leave that note. I totally had the fear of hell and god when writing that and for some reason, though a populare reason, I criticized athiests as having no moral fiber which is completely false. I think I confused athiesm with satanic teaching. Sorry and Porn Bless You All!

 

[Nester6]

With all that said and being an athiest, I am still a VERY STRONG Republican! I believe we'd be much, much worse off with the likes of Hillary's or other crazy liberal tax and spend Democrats. Thank you.

Again, while I have my views, I am still a proud Republican. I believe they run the country better and there are right and wrong behaviors. While an atheist, I still believe,for example, that abortion is murder and breaks the golden rule of do unto others as you would do to yourself.

 

[Boothbabe]

I'm a Pastafarian, I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and when I die I'm going to a place with beer volcanoes and blonde strippers with big boobs

These are his eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts"

1. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Act Like a Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou Ass When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don't Believe In Me, That's Okay. Really, I'm Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn't About Them So Don't Change The Subject.

2. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Use My Existence As A Means To Oppress, Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, And/Or, You Know, Be Mean To Others. I Don't Require Sacrifices, And Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People.

3. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Judge People For The Way They Look, Or How They Dress, Or The Way They Talk, Or, Well, Just Play Nice, Okay? Oh, And Get This In Your Thick Heads: Woman = Person. Man = Person. Samey = Samey. One Is Not Better Than The Other, Unless We're Talking About Fashion And I'm Sorry, But I Gave That To Women And Some Guys Who Know The Difference Between Teal and Fuchsia.

4. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Indulge In Conduct That Offends Yourself, Or Your Willing, Consenting Partner Of Legal Age AND Mental Maturity. As For Anyone Who Might Object, I Think The Expression Is Go F*** Yourself, Unless They Find That Offensive In Which Case They Can Turn Off the TV For Once And Go For A Walk For A Change.

5. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist, Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat, Then Go After The B******.

6. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Build Multimillion-Dollar Churches/Temples/Mosques/Shrines To My Noodly Goodness When The Money Could Be Better Spent (Take Your Pick):

1. Ending Poverty
2. Curing Diseases
3. Living In Peace, Loving With Passion, And Lowering The Cost Of Cable
I Might be a Complex-Carbohydrate Omniscient Being, But I Enjoy The Simple Things In Life. I Ought To Know. I AM the Creator.

7. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Go Around Telling People I Talk To You. You're Not That Interesting. Get Over Yourself. And I Told You To Love Your Fellow Man, Can't You Take A Hint?

8. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You If You Are Into, Um, Stuff That Uses A Lot Of Leather/Lubricant/Las Vegas. If The Other Person Is Into It, However (Pursuant To #4), Then Have At It, Take Pictures, And For The Love Of Mike, Wear a CONDOM! Honestly, It's A Piece Of Rubber. If I Didn't Want It To Feel Good When You Did IT I Would Have Added Spikes, Or Something.

 

[Lungzyn]

I'm a Pastafarian, I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and when I die I'm going to a place with beer volcanoes and blonde strippers with big boobs

Take me with you!

 

[JonesRick]

This is something I posted last year, but I thought it applies.

I know that for the most part I'll be discussing this in the context of Christianity, but it's not limited to that. In other words, don't be a pedantic anal retentive SOB and try to get on a high horse about how I keep things in terms of a specific monotheistic religion involving a God of the omni-predicates. I already know that, and it's because it's a pain in the ass trying to keep everything in general terms. If I was writing a formal philosophy paper things would be different; this is for a forum. I think there's a difference in what to expect.

About six years ago I was practicing Christian. Or at least trying to be, I should say. About four years ago upon some deep reflection I decided that deep down I really didn't really have any faith. I was in a state of trying to make myself believe something. After some consideration, I decided to stop trying. I stopped playing a game with religion. I stopped putting on a hypocritical façade of being a spiritual person, and I walked away.

Now, unlike most people who I have encountered with this type of story, I don't hold any special hostility towards religion. I don't spend my time looking up criticisms of the Bible, bashing Christians, accusing organized as being a crutch for the weak, or any of the other activities usually associated with militant skeptics out there. I don't look down at people who do have faith and try to live the way they feel God wants them to. I respect their beliefs. Probably more than that, there's probably a feeling of jealousy mixed in there. I wish I could believe, I just don't. When people discuss their faith with me I don't object. I think part of me does believe in God. At the very least I'm afraid of going to Hell. But then I've always felt that's not the healthiest approach. I figure that God doesn't want people going to Him for fire insurance. Sometimes such talks make me feel a bit uncomfortable, especially if I'm told that I should pray for reassurance when I'm having one of my turns, or that going to Church would be good for me, or something like that. The reason it makes me uncomfortable is because part of me wishes I could do that, but I know that to agree to it would make me a liar. But I also know in the back corner of my mind I really don't want to come out and say no to it.

I've already mentioned that I don't mind people discussing their faith around me. Maybe it's due to my own inner struggles and that while I don't agree, I understand. I don't know.

I do object when other people object their discussions. There's the classical "don't force your beliefs on me." "Religion is personal, keep it yourself." "Other people don't like hearing about it." Well, let's see. Telling someone not to force their beliefs on other people is a belief you're forcing on other people. That's always been a pet peeve of mine. Yes, it's a convenient answer. Yes it sounds good. Sorry, it's a self-contradiction. And all three objections listed are specifically applied to religion, but there's nothing inherent to any of them that limits them to such. You could substitute just about any social structure, theory, activity, what have you and the ideas are still more or less meaningful. Why does religion get the special treatment? Yeah, we've all ran into the loud mouth preacher waving his Bible around with his neatly parted hair and shining teeth. We all know some hypocrites out there who smile and praise the Lord one minute and then stab you in the back the next.

But there's assholes every where. There's nothing special about the religious ones.

I've always felt one big problem with most discussions is a lack of agreement of a meta-language. Actually, more than that: there's the complete lack of acknowledgment of there being a problem of meta-language to consider. Let's say ideology A has belief x. Ideology B implies not-x. B then tries to explain to A how x is false and not-x is true. However, since it is in the context of A, the arguments presented aren't really meaningful to B. For a rebuttal of x, it either needs to be shown that x is inconsistent with B, or there needs to a meta-language A' adopted that provides either an area of common agreement of A and B, or has principles that A and B were derived from. And no I couldn't make that any more confusing than that if I tried.

One of the contributing factors to the crisis of faith that led to my rejection of it was an inability to make judgment calls against people. The teachings I had heard told me to be firm in my conviction, and that anyone who had not accepted Christ was on the highway to hell, no if's, and's, or but's. Whenever there was a moment of people telling me that they held to a different idea or didn't feel inclined to really have a firm opinion on such matters, I really couldn't find it within me to argue with them. They had an answer that worked for them, they were satisfied, they weren't hurting anyone. I didn't see what the problem was. I could say what I believed, but I also never made any claims that I was absolutely right. Well, maybe I did, but each time I felt like a jackass afterwards.

A few times some friends told me they were gay or bi. Each time, despite years of being told that I needed to try to save them, I just shrugged and accepted it. Well, not even accepted. I didn't see what there was to accept. They were gay, so what. Same person I had known for however long. Now, if they had said they liked "So Happy Together" by the Turtles then we would have had problems.

I'm not a relativist. I don't believe that morals and ethics are a matter of opinion. I do think there's an absolute truth out there. I just don't know what it is, and I'm not sure anyone can ever know what it is. The best anyone can do is figure out what works for them and lets them live and let live in peace.

You seem to be at ease with Godel and Kleene