Obama to do away with the "Don't ask, don't tell" in military

[meesterperfect]

I gets it. I had a feeling that was the problem with it. Having to hide your sexual orientation would no doubt be hard.

I don't understand why they do not allow homosexuals in the military in the first place. Gays are not stupid. A gay man (The majority, anyway) wouldn't attempt to seduce a man or act outlandish in an office building. Likewise, the majority of gay men will not do so in the army. They know when they sign up what is expected of them; they are expected to act professionally when they are in uniform. They are not going to say something stupid like, "I can't shoot him; he's too gorgeous!"; they will do their job, just like every other soldier.

I think you may not understand. gays are allowed in the military, they just cant say theyre gay.

But if there are already gays in the military who haven't told the rest of the force they're gay, what difference is it going to make once they're allowed to do so? Do you think once homosexuals are allowed to tell those around them that they are in fact gay without fear of the repercussions, that they will drop the "fake" soldier persona and are automatically going to turn into campy stereotypical version of a homosexual who starts flailing around the showiers and screeching with joy at the first sign of a cock?

Other than allowing those who wish to disclose their sexual orientation without fear of being kicked out. This act will not change a thing.

Funny scenario you described.
Ok I have no prob with gays in the military if they must follow the same rules as anyone else which i believe at this point they do.
I was just asking what i thought was a logical question. seperate showers seperate living.
Not condoning it, just asking.
I mean if they seperate men and women, i assume for sexual orientation, a logical arguement can be made in the case of gays.
Just trying to show another side of the spectrum.

Anybody ever notice in the USA you have 2 kinds of gays?
The type that doesnt show it, behave like mature people and dont make it an issue.
And the type that screams I'm gay with every breath.
talk differently, behave differently and want to be sure everybody knows or thinks theyre gay, flamboyant.
the latter has physchological problems.
the former, doesnt. in general

 

[tartanterrier]

I guess the forces have always been full of happy people.But
as long as they do the job just as well,then there is no harm

 

[TrueTranssexual]

Anybody ever notice in the USA you have 2 kinds of gays?
The type that doesnt show it, behave like mature people and dont make it an issue.
And the type that screams I'm gay with every breath.
talk differently, behave differently and want to be sure everybody knows or thinks theyre gay, flamboyant.
the latter has physchological problems.
the former, doesnt. in general

Oh dear...a feminine gay man...the most hated of all!

What really happens is that the feminine behaviour of this men, make straight men uncomfortable; because unconsciously they may like the femininity and vulnerability displayed, but hate that is coming from a man. That's usually why there is a reaction, often violent. Although most won't admit to it.

Many straight men get turned on when a woman behaves extremely feminine. But gay men just look "silly" or "disgusting" to them when they do that, because such behavior is only expected from women to turn on guys.

While it is true that many women do not behave like this, if you think of the feminine sexual icons, like Marilyn Monroe, etc, for example, many of this women displayed femininity in the same cartoonish way that many gay men do it today, and that's one of the reasons they were the most popular with men.

Gay men that are usually "bottoms" behave like this, and that's a way for them to attract a partner. It seems to work.

Do they have a psychological problem? Well...not anymore than those men who act super-butch, super-tough, super-agressive, and have these "ultra-masculine" behaviours.

Femininity is as act, a learned beahviour, and even more artifical than masculinity. Men typically respond to femininity, sometimes even when it comes from another man. :2 cents:

 

[Shifty]

TT, I respect your opinion. But I disagree with a few of your statements.

Oh dear...a feminine gay man...the most hated of all!

What really happens is that the feminine behaviour of this men, make straight men uncomfortable; because unconsciously they may like the femininity and vulnerability displayed, but hate that is coming from a man. That's usually why there is a reaction, often violent. Although most won't admit to it.

How can you possible know this?

Many straight men get turned on when a woman behaves extremely feminine.

Again, how can you possible know this?

While it is true that many women do not behave like this, if you think of the feminine sexual icons, like Marilyn Monroe, etc, for example. Many of this women displayed femininity in the same cartoonish way that many gay men do it today, and that's one of the reasons they were the most popular with men.

Disagree. Marilyn Monroe's iconic appeal was tied to her looks, sensuality and flirtatiousness. The famous photo of Marilyn with her dress blowing up is not famous because she is acting 'feminine'.

Gay men that are usually "bottoms" behave like this, and that's a way for them to attract a partner. I seems to work.

This is where don't ask don't tell applies.

Do they have a psychological problem? Well...not anymore than those men who act super-butch, super-tough, super-agressive, and have these "ultra-masculine" behaviours.

Agreed.

Femininity is as act, a learned beahviour, and even more artifical than masculinity. Men typically respond to femininity, sometimes even when it comes from another man. :2 cents:

Really? Then you learned to be a transsexual.

 

[TrueTranssexual]

TT, I respect your opinion. But I disagree with a few of your statements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTranssexual
Oh dear...a feminine gay man...the most hated of all!

What really happens is that the feminine behaviour of this men, make straight men uncomfortable; because unconsciously they may like the femininity and vulnerability displayed, but hate that is coming from a man. That's usually why there is a reaction, often violent. Although most won't admit to it.

How can you possible know this?

After being very analytical and debating about it for a while, I think that's a logical conclusion. Otherwise, maybe you can explain why many men react the way they do to men that display feminine behavior, sometimes even to the point of assaulting them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTranssexual

Many straight men get turned on when a woman behaves extremely feminine.

Again, how can you possible know this?

Ask pretty much any straight guy if they don't like women that behave very feminine. Also, if you look around, you will see that many girls that are very popular with guys behave this way. And by the way, flirting is also a way in which you can display very feminine behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTranssexual
While it is true that many women do not behave like this, if you think of the feminine sexual icons, like Marilyn Monroe, etc, for example. Many of this women displayed femininity in the same cartoonish way that many gay men do it today, and that's one of the reasons they were the most popular with men.

Disagree. Marilyn Monroe's iconic appeal was tied to her looks, sensuality and flirtatiousness. The famous photo of Marilyn with her dress blowing up is not famous because she is acting 'feminine'.

I disagree with this. It was not just her looks that made her who she was, if she didn't doll up, didn't act hyper-feminine through flirting, mannerisms etc, she wouldn't have been considered a sex icon. And her "sensuality" was also very dependant on her ultra-feminine behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTranssexual
Gay men that are usually "bottoms" behave like this, and that's a way for them to attract a partner. I seems to work.

This is where don't ask don't tell applies.

How is it that a man just acting flamboyantly feminine, the same as a guy stating that he is gay? Unless he says it himself, that would be an assumption, not a fact. So I don't see why you say that in this case it is were it applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTranssexual
Do they have a psychological problem? Well...not anymore than those men who act super-butch, super-tough, super-agressive, and have these "ultra-masculine" behaviours.

Agreed.

OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTranssexual
Femininity is as act, a learned beahviour, and even more artifical than masculinity. Men typically respond to femininity, sometimes even when it comes from another man.

Really? Then you chose to be a transsexual.

That's your conclusion from what I said? If you think being transsexual is about wanting to paint your nails pink, to wear make-up and let your hair grow long, then you are very misinformed. It has nothing to do with this superficial things, but more to do with being trapped in the wrong physical body. Not all transsexuals are feminine, just like it is a biological woman's choice to be feminine or not.

Hope you understand my point:thumbsup:

 

[meesterperfect]

I see your points TT and respect them, even agree to an extent.
I was not really talking about feminine gay men but more of, the ones who put on the act, but to an extreme.
Many times this act is just plain ridiculous and leaves me wondering what the hell happened.
i see your point about those tough guys putting on the act.......but in real life i dont see it much, mostly just in professional wrestling.......Oh yeah.
Like that guy for example who asked miss california the question then posted a youtube video calling her names.
he doesn't really talk like that, its an act. 24/7
alot of white chics talk like that too these days, with a phony type lisp or something.
its weird.........i think we can agree on be yourself.

 

[Shifty]

After being very analytical and debating about it for a while, I think that's a logical conclusion. Otherwise, maybe you can explain why many men react the way they do to men that display feminine behavior, sometimes even to the point of assaulting them?

Define 'many' men. I don't think the majority of men react negatively to this behavior; very few would actually assault someone. Of course, there are exceptions, but no more so than in any situation of prejudice or discrimination. Perhaps you could have said 'in my experience'.

Ask pretty much any straight guy if they don't like women that behave very feminine. Also, if you look around, you will see that many girls that are very popular with guys behave this way. And by the way, flirting is also a way in which you can display very feminine behaviour.

Again, you could have said 'in my experience' TT.

I disagree with this. It was not just her looks that made her who she was, if she didn't doll up, didn't act hyper-feminine through flirting, mannerisms etc, she wouldn't have been considered a sex icon. And her "sensuality" was also very dependant on her ultra-feminine behaviour.

Ok, agree to disagree.

How is it that a man just acting flamboyantly feminine, the same as a guy stating that he is gay? Unless he says it himself, that would be an assumption, not a fact. So I don't see why you say that in this case it is were it applies.

Admittedly, I was being facetious. However, imo this point has no bearing.

That's your conclusion from what I said? If you think being transsexual is about wanting to paint your nails pink, to wear make-up and let your hair grow long, then you are very misinformed. It has nothing to do with this superficial things, but more to do with being trapped in the wrong physical body. Not all transsexuals are feminine, just like it is a biological woman's choice to be feminine or not.

You're misunderstanding me I think. I am not misinformed. I imply that sexuality is primarily inherent in a person; that it is not learned. Thus, because femininity & masculinity are components of sexuality, these are not learned. Granted, some people put it on. However, realistically I see these as aspects of behavior vs. personal choices.

 

[PlasmaTwa2]

I think you may not understand. gays are allowed in the military, they just cant say theyre gay.

I wouldn't say that is letting gays in the military, then. As far as the army is concerned they are not hiring a gay person.

 

[TrueTranssexual]

Shifty

I wish I was more eloquent with what I said, and apparently I wasn't. I don't dismiss the fact that there is a biological component to femininity and masculinity, because I know there is. What I was basically refering was to the artificial qualities of femininity, especially when taken overboard and how it resembles "flamboyant gay" behaviour.

There is no biological component to painting your nails, doing your hair, wearing make-up, acting like an airheaded bimbo (like Marilyn did in some of her movies), but all this traits are associated with femininity in our society and many men get attracted to women that display them. Nevertheless, they are not really natural, but learned and instilled by society.

If a man, for instance, imitates the behavior of Marilyn Monroe without crossdressing, for example, he will definitely appear to the public as a "flamboyant gay man." That was my point. That even though the behaviour is essentially the same one, extreme femininity in men will come across as flamboyant, in your face type of behaviour.

Also, when you think about why men react to feminine gay men like they do, you can just say they are prejudice, but is good to deconstruct the prejudice and get to the bottom of it as well. And that's what I did. It is not my mere experience, it happens all the time, to many people.:2 cents:

 

[TrueTranssexual]

I see your points TT and respect them, even agree to an extent.
I was not really talking about feminine gay men but more of, the ones who put on the act, but to an extreme.
Many times this act is just plain ridiculous and leaves me wondering what the hell happened.
i see your point about those tough guys putting on the act.......but in real life i dont see it much, mostly just in professional wrestling.......Oh yeah.
Like that guy for example who asked miss california the question then posted a youtube video calling her names.
he doesn't really talk like that, its an act. 24/7
alot of white chics talk like that too these days, with a phony type lisp or something.
its weird.........i think we can agree on be yourself.

I am glad you understood where I was getting at!:thumbsup:

 

[Smallville417]

I'm glad he is doing away with it.

 

[jasonk282]

Oh shucks i don't know, why do they seperate males and females?
cause guys dont lift the seat?
I thought it was because of sexual attraction mostly.
so for example if a guy who likes guys is with guys in the guys shower , couldnt that cause a problem ?
you say no, ok ill take your word for it.

WTF are you talking about, have you served in the military? There is more Herto guys "acting" homosexual than actual homo's. And Also guess what People don't really care, as long as your doing your job I don't give a fuck if your straight, gay or bi just do your fucking job.

People know who the gays are without them comming out and NO ONE CARES! And BTW there are seperate showers at the base and FOB's people don't shower together like high school gym and if you in Irag or Afghinstan the chance you will get to shower is slim. I went 1 month without a shower in Tal Afar due to partols, raids and being part of a Quick Reaction Force.

 

[Facetious]

Re: Obama to do away with the "Don't ask, don't tell" in military

Correct, and he made a special speaking engagement out of it ! on Saturday yet !

The question is, why did he not mention a syllable about this ?
Not so much the abandoning of a position but the loss of eight U.S. servicemen ?

"My" president ? hardly !

Oh yea, I have a problem with this president, yes I do.

 

[Gordar]

Let me be the devil's advocate this once...

I don't think it's a good idea yet. Not because I believe gay men have no right to serve in an army, but because of the effects it will have on them when they do join.

Right now nobody knows what sexual orientation someone in the army has, so gay men and lesbian women are safe from peers and more importantly, superiors who are homophobic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fig._148_-_How_do_you_feel_about_gays_and_lesbians.JPG

Above is a graph showing the negative feelings of Dems and Reps, so I'd say homophobia is still quite common. 35.95% ((27.7+44.2)/2) of the US population has negative feelings towards homosexuals (both male and female) which would be a grand total of 107,850,000 people in the US do not like gay people (this is not entirely correct. In this calculation I assumed the US has a population 300 million, there are no other political parties, nobody is unaligned and that the amount of dems & reps is divided equally, which probably isn't the case).

Even if only 1% of those people are gay/lesbian bashers, then you'd still have more than a million people bashing gays and/or lesbians. That's 1 out of every 300 people.

Since the army is not a place for wimps and since a lot of military people will probably show a lot of macho behavior the chances of gay bashers in the army is also higher.

So unless people's opinion about gay/lesbian people changes I'd advice gay/lesbian people in the army to stay quiet for their own protection. Obama's idea doesn't mean people have to admit they're gay, but a lot of gay men in the army probably will & later find out that it might not have been the smartest move.

 

[ThatRedWing]

As long as you are doing your job, your sexual orientation should have no bearing on anything. I don't care if my mechanic is gay or not as long as they fix my car right. What? You are a gay firefighter? Don't give a shit just keep my house from burning down. I don't care if you are wearing pink lace fatigues as long as you remain professional on the job. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with job perfomance. Period.

 

[meesterperfect]

WTF are you talking about, have you served in the military? There is more Herto guys "acting" homosexual than actual homo's. And Also guess what People don't really care, as long as your doing your job I don't give a fuck if your straight, gay or bi just do your fucking job.

People know who the gays are without them comming out and NO ONE CARES! And BTW there are seperate showers at the base and FOB's people don't shower together like high school gym and if you in Irag or Afghinstan the chance you will get to shower is slim. I went 1 month without a shower in Tal Afar due to partols, raids and being part of a Quick Reaction Force.

This agression will not stand.

kidding, kind of.
I just asked a question and even explained the reason behind the question.
other side of the coin as they say.
I gave no opinion because I have none except dont ask dont tell is an obvious violation of the 1st.

 

[Lethal]

Even the present Military Brass want Don't Ask, Don't Tell to go away. This is really a no brainer for Obama and basically "low fruit" for him...

u sure bout that?

 

[Baill Inneraora]

Mr. Conservative, the late Senator Barry Goldwater (who is considered to be the god father of the conservative movement in the United States) talked about Don’t Ask Don’t Tell back when this came up in the first Clinton term. He said, "You don't have to be straight, to shoot straight." He also said:


"After more than 50 years in the military and politics, I am still amazed to see how upset people can get over nothing. Lifting the ban on gays in the military isn't exactly nothing, but it's pretty damned close.

Everyone knows that gays have served honorably in the military since at least the time of Julius Caesar. They'll still be serving long after we're all dead and buried. That should not surprise anyone.

But most Americans should be shocked to know that while the country's economy is going down the tubes, the military has wasted half a billion dollars over the past decade chasing down gays and running them out of the armed services.

It's no great secret that military studies have proved again and again that there's no valid reason for keeping the ban on gays. Some thought gays were crazy, but then found that wasn't true, then they decided that gays were a security risk, but again the Department of Defense decided that wasn't so-in fact, one study by the Navy in 1956 that was never made public found gays to be good security risks. Even Larry Korb, President Reagan's man in charge of implementing the Pentagon ban on gays, now admits that it was a dumb idea."
Link:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/scotts/bulgarians/barry-goldwater.html

 

[jasonk282]

We in the military could careless if someone is straight or gay. All we care about is if they can do their job.

 

[bustybbwlover]

i'd have to go with chris rock on this one, 'If they wanna fight, let 'em fight. Cause I ain't fightin'! I don't give a fuck if there's a Russian tank rollin' down Flatbush Avenue. I ain't shootin' nobody. So call me a faggot! When the war's over, I'll be the faggot with two legs, thank you!' also cuz it's funny but his point is valid