Outlawing guns in the US ...

[Friday on my mind]

most guns are illegal for private citizens to own, and it is hard to apply for a permit.

I don't think thats true negator.Most guns are legal for private ownership.Some states are tougher then others but many you can easily buy all sorts of guns.Just look at someone like the kid who shot up Virginia Tech,he bought guns with little problem.
Rifles and shotguns are very easy to purchase most places and while a little tougher handguns are readily available as well.
And one of the problems with states having different laws is that if someone is in a state that is more restrictive all they need to do is go somewhere that is less restrictive.That's why Washington DC's restrictive laws are relatively ineffective,all you need do is drive a few miles to Virginia and buy what you want.

 

[negator]

I don't think thats true negator.Most guns are legal for private ownership.Some states are tougher then others but many you can easily buy all sorts of guns.Just look at someone like the kid who shot up Virginia Tech,he bought guns with little problem.
Rifles and shotguns are very easy to purchase most places and while a little tougher handguns are readily available as well.
And one of the problems with states having different laws is that if someone is in a state that is more restrictive all they need to do is go somewhere that is less restrictive.That's why Washington DC's restrictive laws are relatively ineffective,all you need do is drive a few miles to Virginia and buy what you want.

you're right to call me on that. i regretted it after hastily posting it. quantitatively, most guns fall under the category of title 2 weapons. these are prohibitively expensive to own legally. they also put you on a short batf list that i, for one, would not relish being on. (call me paranoid). but they are technically legal, as is everything, when you are super-rich.
restrictions on gun ownership are by definition an "infringement" and so not allowed per the 2nd amendment guarantee. furthermore, they are inherently racist.

 

[babeswow69]

Funny, that attitude of "let's put it this way, if the government wants my guns, they'd have to try to take them." really pisses of Europeans. We say that as extremely arragent and obnoxious. Gun crime is unbelievable, and to not try and stop it by limiting fire arms seams the most backwards thing ever. US has more shooting in LA than the whole of the UK. Is that connected to the fact that guns are illegal in the UK? I'd guess so.

You have a country run by pressure groups and lobbies. Have you lost your own personal choices?

Funny how you across the pond fail to understand that those that commit crimes with firearms do so without legally buying and/or registering them.

I live in Pennsylvania and have a permit to carry............

 

[dave_rhino]

Funny how you across the pond fail to understand that those that commit crimes with firearms do so without legally buying and/or registering them.

And it's funny how you guys across the pond are so insanely naive...

 

[Mr. Daystar]

And it's funny how you guys across the pond are so insanely naive...

It's even funnier how you guys across the pond forget, we left, fought, won and established those rights because of you. This country was founded on certain beliefs and freedoms we hold sacred, just like the traditions in any country. England is steeped in traditions, I would guess I probably don't understand most of them, but they're yours, so why try and change them. Please spare me how what I hold sacred isn't the same as what you hold sacred, it's just the way it is. Our guns aren't coming to England and hurting you, and if they are, it just proved that criminals don't get their guns by legal means. It also proves you shouldn't have outlawed them, then you could fight back. I just want to mention that it has never in the history of this country been harder to get a gun legally, and no matter how many laws they've passed, the only time crime rates go down, are when the right to carry concealed is put into law. Those stats come from the FBI...not the gun lobby, or the gun grabbers, not that any stat can't be made to conform to a particular side. Oh, and I think I answered your question pretty good, I think you just won't be happy until you hear the one answer you want...all guns are bad, and you are correct Dave.

 

[dave_rhino]

Ok, if owning weapons makes you feel better about yourself, go for it.

 

[snoopy63]

Is there a better way to express road rage than by flashing a piece and threatening someone? I think not. It's about as American as apple pie and big bird.

Therefore, I am for guns.

More importantly, I am for guns for children. Plus, how am I going to defend myself from ferocious 6 year olds who attack me and kick me in the shins when I'm not looking? For that, I obviously need to own a gun, preferably automatic.

 

[ninetysixcavy]

Supreme Court Throws Out Handgun Ban

WASHINGTON (June 26) -- The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that Americans have a right to own guns for self-defense and hunting, the justices' first major pronouncement on gun rights in U.S. history.

The court's 5-4 ruling struck down the District of Columbia's 32-year-old ban on handguns as incompatible with gun rights under the Second Amendment. The decision went further than even the Bush administration wanted, but probably leaves most firearms laws intact.

This is good news for those that need to protect themselves. Good thing we had 5 Justices that knew how to interpret the law.

 

[tubuler]

Video of Obama talking about todays ruling:
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/120253.html

 

[Friday on my mind]

Video of Obama talking about todays ruling:
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/120253.html

I'm fine with the decision and Obama's stance,what bothers me is I saw him say he thought the supreme court decided wrongly striking down the death penalty for child molesters.I would hope especially as a black he would oppose the death penalty all together.

 

[tubuler]

Yeah well, Americans have weird traditions and double standards that are impossible to see around for a majority of the people.

I'm sorry, but the results of this poll are absolutely pathetic. Pathetic. This poll is a fantastic reason why Americans are powerless.

It's not about guns or rights. It's about frikking stagnant, pathetic, blind, sheep-like unwillingness to change several-hundred-year old documents that are used and abused by our leaders, and yet still keep us powerless, completely powerless and silent.

"I don't think any amendments should ever be repealed."

What an easy, easy, pathetically easy way out of having to think.

Sometimes I think the majority stoop to new lows.

Have guns. Don't have guns. But use your frikking brains. Those papers are centuries old. Why do you not want to evolve? Why do you not want to make things better? Why do you not want to deliberate. To discuss.

Why are Americans so anti-democracy?

This country is probably further away from democracy than any western country I can think of.

People in this country don't know what freedom is.

God. Can someone start some polls on some forward thinking countries where people are willing to consider each others' points of view and admit that nothing is perfect and some things about themselves and their systems are deeply deeply flawed and that there are always ways that things can be made better?

This gives me a headache.

Can we have a poll option "I think none of us should ever have to think again."

Those are some pretty broad statements. Your definitely lumping every American into one big "********** is smarter than all of you" category. It's a bit pretentious.

 

[bombardier52]

Rough words **********.

Normally you strap these thoughts together with some research and arguments. I don't always agree with them but I do try to see your point of view. This though, is just emotion. Not sure why you went that route but you lost me.

Respect

 

[sputnikgirl]

Why do people even want to own guns? Isn't society violent enough already, without everyone toting guns?

 

[Member2019]

"Violent Enough" ...

Why do people even want to own guns? Isn't society violent enough already, without everyone toting guns?

You have nothing to fear from people who legally own guns in the US. Honestly.

The fact that guns were invented are the problem. The DC statistics don't lie on that fact, doesn't matter if they ban them from the home or not.

 

[tubuler]

Hey, I'm one of you. I'm smarter than some and dumber than some. But saying "we should never be allowed to change these things even if 100% of us want to" is not smart, or dumb, it's just absolutely depressing. And that's what the vast majority of people said in this poll.

The poll speaks for itself. I have no pretences. It is what it is. The point is, much of America reflects this poll. Would you rather if I point out that I am talking about the 75% who voted for that option? If we look at where the voters were from, I'm sure that it's more like 90% of the Americans voted for that option.

SCARY.

I want positive change and people to stand up for democracy in our own land. These kinds of things scare me into thinking it's impossible. The poll is the broad statement. I am merely commentating on it, in dismay.

The vast majority of the people who voted on this poll voted the way they did because they were given limited options.

The question was, "Should the 2nd Amendment be overturned?" And the people who don't think so were only given 2 choices. Which are--->
1. No, but I'd accept it if overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

and

2. No, and I don't think any Amendments of the Bill of Rights should ever be repealed

There was no option that said, "No, I don't think the 2nd amendment should be overturned, but I am in favor of gun control laws and restrictions that are rational and make sense."

I agree with your point about refusing to change the constitution. I think if it makes sense and the majority of the people want it then we should change it. But when it comes to guns, the majority of Americans want the right to legally arm themselves. The "American Gun Culture" has roots that run deep. It's origins can be traced back to the Revolutionary War(American War of Independance as you English call it) and I don't see Americans giving up their guns anytime soon.

Guns are like condoms. Better to have one and not need it then to need it and not have one.(yes that's from AVP)

 

[Member2019]

Hey, I'm one of you. I'm smarter than some and dumber than some. But saying "we should never be allowed to change these things even if 100% of us want to" is not smart, or dumb, it's just absolutely depressing. And that's what the vast majority of people said in this poll.
The poll speaks for itself. I have no pretences. It is what it is. The point is, much of America reflects this poll. Would you rather if I point out that I am talking about the 75% who voted for that option? If we look at where the voters were from, I'm sure that it's more like 90% of the Americans voted for that option.
SCARY.
I want positive change and people to stand up for democracy in our own land. These kinds of things scare me into thinking it's impossible. The poll is the broad statement. I am merely commentating on it, in dismay.

US Constitutional Amendments aren't about simple majority. They are not laws. The are THE LAWS OF LAWS of all laws, ones that cannot be overturned by and will only validated by the US Supreme Court.

Honestly Fox, you will bounce around an argument until it fits.

Previously you stated you think outlawing guns should be a simple majority. You admitted you saw no reason to stop and understand American Civics which defines how our processes work.

Now you're no longer complaining about just the requirement of a supermajority to change "THE LAWS OF LAWS," but the fact that a supermajority of people on this board believe they should not be changed. Although I cannot answer for some, I'm sure there are some that don't say that because they don't believe in the process.

I just know many people who don't want to change the 2nd Amendment because -- tada -- anyone who has studied American Civics know it was the 2nd Highest Ranked Law the American People Wanted before they'd ratify the US Constitution in the first place. But they'd still have to "deal with it" if a supermajority disagreed and changed it.

That's why Americans are overwhelmingly against touching the original 9 individual rights, and that's what their saying here. That's the message. You don't see it. It's
not about being smart or dumb. In fact, the brilliance of American Civics is that civilian leaders, let alone the people, are dumb at many times. It only attempts to cushion against that "spur of the moment, this is important today" dumbness to prevent us from pissing away our liberties.

It's about actually knowing the first thing about American Civics, its history, why we value the things we do -- often differently than your alleged "the world thinks this and you should to" attitude. No single administration has or will ever define the US. Every policy spans many administrations. I point out this irony on Clinton when people say "oh, Clinton would never do that." I do the same on Reagan, Bush, etc... on more conservative boards when I hear similar against Clinton.

The US has never been about what the world thinks, and thank God for that. Seriously. Think about it. No wait, you can't, you don't know much US history. I'm still laughing at your comment about the War of 1812. Man, that was probably our worst, most nationalistic, stupid war ever.

 

[Roughneck]

Why do people even want to own guns? Isn't society violent enough already, without everyone toting guns?

Tell me:
1. How often do you hear of stories where guns are used to commit crime?
2. How often do you hear of stories where guns are used to prevent or stop crime?

Read the hundreds upon hundreds of stories here, where guns are used in defense against violence and crime.

Now, how many such stories did you see parroted about on the news channels? At the same level as reports about guns being used for violent crime?

Are they the same?
Why not?


Food for thought.

cheers,

 

[bigbadbrody]

Chris Rock on Bullet Control
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OqHnEO5Vm50

 

[Member2019]

Your poll is streamlined

Given the fact that there is limited space, duh!
I'm the opposite, I often go on at length about things to the complaint of others.
So where you get that, I don't know? :dunno:

I invited explanation, discussion, etc...
I was very specific in the answers, and a supermajority of people still voted that they were against even the Constitutional Process on changing The Bill of Rights.

NOTE: I was not in that supermajority, I voted the immediately preceding option.

it is unscientific

:rofl:
For someone who refuses to read up on American Civics, that's funny.

Do you really understand the meaning of "unscientific"? Seriously!
For someone who puts things in right/wrong, smart/dumb, etc... without reading up on the views of other people who influenced this nation.

and forces your own opinions onto people by making up phrases and forcing them to choose between them.

The highest Law in the US is its Constitutional Law.
You must abide by its processes to even change its processes.
If you had remotely studied anything about American civics, you would know this.

The only thing it actually did was make the board members look absolutely staunch and immovable in general

True. I don't deny that. But maybe they simply agreed that they are immobile on it?

But then you finished off with this ...

and against positive change.

Now this is damn funny!

"look absolutely staunch and immovable" followed by "against positive change"

Honestly Fox, I think you're hardwired wrong.
I've never seen someone complain about people being "immovable" but then finishing off -- in the same sentence -- with the exact same, "immovable" attitude.

It is quite an embarrassment.

We're Americans, we've been embarrassing the fuck out of ourselves in front of the world for 400+ years!
Dude, if you think there wasn't a time in history where Americans weren't considered the scum of the Earth, get real!

Even during the Clinton administration we felt it!
Go back to Washington! Man, now those were the days when we really took it up the ass!

Seriously, read foreign news outlets from that day on Washington!

You'll never see past your own vast, infinite knowledge of everything, so keep talking to yourself, and saying the same things, again, and again, and again, if you enjoy it.

I don't know everything, I just know what you have not bothered to even remotely want to study.
That's reality, I can't change that and there is a reason why responsible citizens of any nation study their civics.

You, nor most of America, gives a damn what the world thinks (clearly)

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner! :hatsoff:
The American nation was founded on that very principle!

but I promise you it is because you have been trained to think that way by the geniuses that control every aspect of your nation

Yes! We are programmed to think like ... wait ... no, it can't be ... Americans!
We have these stupid concepts of majority v. supermajority, legislative v. executive v. judicial, individual freedom trumping group rights.
It's all wrong dammit! We know it! But we continue on, despite people like yourself.

I'm with those other guys ... get the fuck out, we don't want you. :wave2:
Seriously, you keep talking like you're not even remotely interested in why American exists, so you might as well not exist in America.

and I promise you are doing all of the exact things they want you to do, so they can use those "sacred texts" that everyone is so scared to modernize and adapt, to continue to wield absolute power.

Yep. The US is the chronically fucked up country.
Always have been. Always will be.
We're the big problem in the world.
Always have been. Always will be.

The truth is quite clear to *everyone*. We have absolutely no say, absolutely no power, and what we want is absolutely disregarded by our rulers because they were all bought by the corporations and billionaires long, long ago.

Yep. The classic federal bank arguments.

Of course, if you bothered to read my own posts and actually use them to research American Civics, you might actually recognize that I do mark Andrew Jackson in my top 5 Presidents.
Why? Because he fought a central, federal bank.

But because you've lumped me in with "all those evil, dumb, program Americans" you don't see that I differ with many.
You really don't see it, do you?

To you, I'm just another stupid American, causing problems, ignoring the world, not doing anything right.
And you wonder why this country was founded?

Future Americans will be highly embarrassed that modern day Americans are so proud and obsessed with this, the most flawed and exploited of democratic systems.

Yes, yes, yes, we've heard this all before.

We're screwed up as a Democratic-Republic can get.
We're controlled by our government.
We have no freedom, no speech, no say, no control.

We need a better federal government to make us better.
We need government controlled media to inform us better.
We just need more government services to make everything better.

Man, you are in so need of an American Civics 101 lesson.
But until then, the entertainment continues! Stay tuned!

State machine for Fox:

1. Make argument for case
2a. If argument wins, lambast American government as the problem
2b. If argument loses, lambast all Americans as the problem
3. Repeat for same argument over and over

 

[sputnikgirl]

Seriously, insulting two members' (me & fox) education isn't a very convincing argument. We both graduated from good universities. My university required "civics" classes to graduate. By the way, the term for government classes for the past 10-15 years has been political science, not civics.