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POLL: Should LEGAL Immigrants Be Called/Allowed To Serve On Juries?

Should LEGAL Immigrants Be Called/Allowed To Serve On Juries?

  • Yes, but I don't feel that strongly either way

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I would like to hear more from both sides

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

georges

Moderator
Staff member
I'd say 99% of citizens, natural or no, probably have little to no knowledge of the US judicial system or constitution. However, this is compensated for by the instructions that a judge will give to the jury.

If you are a jury member, you don't think for yourself. Every single law in the state or federal criminal code has a list of things that needs to happen in order for that crime to have been commited. Since I'm most familiar with the RCW (revised code of Washington state) title 9a which is the state's criminal codes, I'll use this in my example.

Now, when it comes down to the jury instructions, more than likely they're going to get something that looks pretty close to the definition of the crime. They have to decide if every part of the definition is met.

Say they sit through a trial for someone getting a charge of burglary in the first degree. The jury doesn't get to formulate an individual opinion. They have to go through this definition and decide if all the elements of the crime were present or not. So say facts about our defendant came out that they did indeed intend to commit a crime against the person in the abode, but they didn't enter or remain unlawfully (say they were given a key) nor was there a fight or weapons. Then this isn't burglary in the first degree and the jury will have to find the person not guilty of this charge.

So the jury is instructed in everything and never have to really think about the process other than did the elements of this crime, as given in the instructions, happen.

I don't think being a citizen is going to make a better juror than a mere resident.

The instructions can be given by the judge but people will always have their own opinions and own feelings about how a crime should be punished. For serious crimes like first degree or second degree murders or in case of serial killers or bombers, the most severe sentences are going to be pronounced. In the above aforesaid cases of first degree or second degree murders or in case of serial killers or bombers, the person will be charged and judged as guilty and even prosecuted to the death penalty.
 

lurkingdirk

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
You cannot be this narcissistic. Did you really just, in essence, say "If you don't agree with georges opinion on what is good for America, you can't be on a jury"? Here are a couple of points for you to consider.
1. I can have objections to the various amendments to the constitution, and still be pro-American. You seem to think that the second amendment trumps all others, and if someone believes in gun control, they are anti-American. That is a small minded, ridiculous position that precludes a huge number of people from being considered American. Fail #1.
2. What does it mean to be a "true patriot supporting...your troops?" Do you do that? Do you fly out and do concerts for them? Send them nudie pictures? Do you make care packages with clean, warm socks for those on the front lines? Or do you put some stupid sticker on your car that says "support the troops" (Or "soutenir les troupes") Tell me, georges, how are you a true patriot supporting the troops? Fail #2.
3. President Obama is not a Socialist. If you think he is, you're not looking very carefully at the policies enacted under his presidency, and you don't have a very good idea of what Socialism is. Sorry, that's fail #3.
4. The Affordable Care Act (a.k.a. Obamacare) is law. It was created by a legally elected government, passed all levels of government approval, and withstood scrutiny by the highest legal court in the land. It really doesn't matter if you like it, hate it, or what not. It's the law. You're going to either get over your hatred of this, or you're going to keep spinning your wheels about this issue with absolutely no impact whatsoever. Must be frustrating. Fail #4.
5. I have never said I endorse all of the current President's policies. Fail #5.
6. No one who is a true American is allowed to be against the death penalty? Is that because it is law, or because georges said so? Let me help you answer that: it isn't law. You don't like freedom, do you, georges? You want to dictate what people like, what they believe, and how the government treats them. According to you, I have to absolutely embrace a hatred of the President, I may not like the Affordable Care Act, I must believe that guns are good for everyone, and I absolutely must believe that the death penalty is the only correct recourse. Fail #6.
Regardless of whether I believe these things or not, georges, what you're suggesting is not a free nation, but one in which beliefs are dictated. That's not the American freedom of thought and ideas that the nation enjoys, georges, that is you trying to impose your own bile and bigotry on me. I don't want it. If you're going to embrace the idea of freedom of beliefs and freedom of speech, you better be willing to stand up and vehemently defend the person who would shout you down in an argument. If you're not, you're just being false about your desires for freedom for Americans.

Guess you'll just ignore this, georges? No comment?
 

Petra

Cult Mother and Simpering Cunt
Staff member
The instructions can be given by the judge but people will always have their own opinions and own feelings about how a crime should be punished. For serious crimes like first degree or second degree murders or in case of serial killers or bombers, the most severe sentences are going to be pronounced. In the above aforesaid cases of first degree or second degree murders or in case of serial killers or bombers, the person will be charged and judged as guilty and even prosecuted to the death penalty.

The Jury can't ignore the law and do what they want. They HAVE to follow the elements of the crime. However, where they have discretion is determining the facts. If it was clearly proven that the person wasn't guilty and they decide to just declare him guilty, then it'll get reversed in appeals. And I really don't think that being a citizen or resident has ANYTHING to do with determining facts any better or worse.

If it comes down to language, do you really think a whole jury of people like Honey Booboo's mother is going to have any better grasp of language OR how the law works than someone who went through the pain in the royal ass legal channels to live in the country legally? Aside from that, anyone who obviously doesn't have a good command won't make it through jury selection.
 

Mariahxxx

I am in my own little world but it's okay they know me here.
Official Checked Star Member
how in the fuck is the word ILLEGAL overlooked so often? if they are ILLEGAL why the fuck should they have a single right in this country? why should they get social services? why should they get a fucking driver's license?

since when is it legal to be an ILLEGAL?

and georges you can keep harping on obama being a socialist but you clearly don't know what the fuck you are talking about. How is he a socialist if wall street is at an all-time record high? CEO salaries are at an all time high. corporate profits are at an all-time high. he hasn't raised the capital gains tax a penny. Corporate regulations are non-existent. if he's a socialist he's a horrible one because the rich are getting richer every day, more than they were under GW Bush. so please, show us something that proves he's a socialist. obamacare isnt free. it requires people to buy health care just like they are required to buy car insurance.
 

Jack Davenport

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
You do realize Petra that an appeal is not automatic don't you? I am impressed with your knowledge of the legal system overall but to be granted an appeal you must show some error that took place be it through counsel, the presiding juage or rules of evidence. Lawyers are creative in doing this more times than not but a case has to be made for it to happen. and to address something you said yesterday, while it is true that a jury must follow a judge's instructions in reaching a verdict, if the juror is not capable of absorbing all of the evidence then instructions are pretty much a waste of time and effort.
 

Johan

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
I believe juries serve Justice in the name of the American people. Then, if you're not a US citizen you shouldn't be allowed to serve on juries.
 

Mariahxxx

I am in my own little world but it's okay they know me here.
Official Checked Star Member
the american judicial system is so unfairly stacked its ridiculous. especially the federal courts. for a perfect example: OJ committed his double murder in a VERY white area of Brentwood which any other case would have been tried in Santa Monica court, meaning the jury pool would be overwhelmingly white and hispanic, which is what happened in the civil trial which was almost all white. but his money bought him a courtroom in downtown LA where he got a jury of 9 blacks, 1 hispanic and 2 whites. OJ didn't live a life that anyone in south central lived. He golfed every day and hardly even had any black friends he spent any time with, yet he was handed a jury of his "peers" of black folks.

Again I dont understand how the fact that these people are here illegally doesnt matter. it's like someone robbing a bank but getting to keep the money when they get caught. you commit a crime but "hey that's ok, here's a nice gift for you. we dont care if you are breaking federal laws and have no right to be here."

you can call me a liberal all day but when it comes to illegals and crime and sex offenders Im in line with the right. but what the right doesnt acknowledge is the fact the illegals are hired by whom? majority are corporations so if the corporations would actually be penalized for hiring them they would stop coming here for work. almost all of the subcontractors with government contracts in california are majority illegals. drive by a road construction site or a crew mowing the grass of the freeway median. all illegals.
 

Jack Davenport

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
I think if Mariah and I were to get along in a face to face. The setting should be at a Mexican restaurant.
 

Mariahxxx

I am in my own little world but it's okay they know me here.
Official Checked Star Member

georges

Moderator
Staff member
You cannot be this narcissistic. Did you really just, in essence, say "If you don't agree with georges opinion on what is good for America, you can't be on a jury"? Here are a couple of points for you to consider.
1. I can have objections to the various amendments to the constitution, and still be pro-American. You seem to think that the second amendment trumps all others, and if someone believes in gun control, they are anti-American. That is a small minded, ridiculous position that precludes a huge number of people from being considered American. Fail #1.
2. What does it mean to be a "true patriot supporting...your troops?" Do you do that? Do you fly out and do concerts for them? Send them nudie pictures? Do you make care packages with clean, warm socks for those on the front lines? Or do you put some stupid sticker on your car that says "support the troops" (Or "soutenir les troupes") Tell me, georges, how are you a true patriot supporting the troops? Fail #2.
3. President Obama is not a Socialist. If you think he is, you're not looking very carefully at the policies enacted under his presidency, and you don't have a very good idea of what Socialism is. Sorry, that's fail #3.
4. The Affordable Care Act (a.k.a. Obamacare) is law. It was created by a legally elected government, passed all levels of government approval, and withstood scrutiny by the highest legal court in the land. It really doesn't matter if you like it, hate it, or what not. It's the law. You're going to either get over your hatred of this, or you're going to keep spinning your wheels about this issue with absolutely no impact whatsoever. Must be frustrating. Fail #4.
5. I have never said I endorse all of the current President's policies. Fail #5.
6. No one who is a true American is allowed to be against the death penalty? Is that because it is law, or because georges said so? Let me help you answer that: it isn't law. You don't like freedom, do you, georges? You want to dictate what people like, what they believe, and how the government treats them. According to you, I have to absolutely embrace a hatred of the President, I may not like the Affordable Care Act, I must believe that guns are good for everyone, and I absolutely must believe that the death penalty is the only correct recourse. Fail #6.
Regardless of whether I believe these things or not, georges, what you're suggesting is not a free nation, but one in which beliefs are dictated. That's not the American freedom of thought and ideas that the nation enjoys, georges, that is you trying to impose your own bile and bigotry on me. I don't want it. If you're going to embrace the idea of freedom of beliefs and freedom of speech, you better be willing to stand up and vehemently defend the person who would shout you down in an argument. If you're not, you're just being false about your desires for freedom for Americans.

1. When you are against the 2nd amendment in a way or another then you don't give a fuck about what the founding fathers fought for. And yes indeed anyone who was in favor of the clinton gun ban and who follows obummer regarding stricter guns law is more or less anti american. When less guns are authorized for sale then only the scum and the illegal aliens are the only ones to have guns and commit crimes and the honest and law abidizing citizens can't defend themselves. Also remember what Nazi Germany, they started to forbid guns, then created a police state and then after that we know the result.
2. And you and your relatives have they even served in the US Armed forces? Both of my uncle served in Nam and two of my cousins served in the 1st Gulf war and Bosnian conflict. They give and send every year food, sock and money to other soldiers who are in the front lines. I too send money to them that is later given to the people who are at the front lines.I don't know about you.
3. When you implement a policy of sharing misery by for example implementing a healthcare where system only hardworking law abiding citizens pay taxes in order that unwilling to work people benefit from a better healthcare system this is stealing and leeching which is what socialism acknowledges.You have zero idea of what is socialism so revise history my friend. In the USA, there is and will always be a place for the very individualistic, successful and self reliant people but the ones who who think that everything is due to them or that are limp wrists have no place in that country.
4. It was a copy paste of the french healthcare system which would benefit the Obama voters first and divide the country more than anything else. I am not astonished of how hard things are going to be hard for Obama who wants to increase the debt by trying to pass the affordable healthcare bill.
5. Oh really? Yet, you continue to view Obama as a messiah like a lot naive people.
6. Because rehabilitation is always the best way to give criminals a second chance, right? I hate a too big and too intrusive government kinda like the Obama 's administration and all his croonies because I know it is not a good thing. You like a nanny state apparently something I don't. You think that some criminals can be rehabilitated when in fact they should be fried on the electric chair or hanged on the public place. I don't impose anything my friend, you and others start to raise such a big blind and relentless admiration for a president who is more or less a foe of freedom but also more a community leader and a country divider than a country unifier. Freedom isn't free. You have rules in every state you will go and the constitution is also here to make sure that those are respected.
 

Mariahxxx

I am in my own little world but it's okay they know me here.
Official Checked Star Member
ok georges so when you force religion into laws you are also saying you dont give a fuck about what the founding fathers fought for, correct?

were you astonished at how GWB got us into not one but two wars, one based entirely on a lie, and then didnt pay for them leaving the next administration to pay for them? How did that work out for the american economy? How has trickle down economics worked out? not too well. The poor have gotten much poorer and the rich much richer. our taxes are still very low and we have been saddled with the debt from a republican majority that GWB had that spent like drunk sailors.

so please, put things into perspective georges. you can blame obama but he inherited one of the worst economies in our country's history. he inherited a dead housing market, double digit unemployment and 2 wars. how would you have done it differently?

he has killed more terrorists than GWB did, including bin Laden. He deported more illegals in his first 4 years than Bush did in all 8. Corporations are making record profits and wall street continues to break its own record every day. unemployment is down, not where it should be but considering the day he took office we were losing 780,000 jobs a month. now we're gaining jobs.

So please georges, tell us all what you would do differently.
 

lurkingdirk

I'm too lazy to set a usertitle.
1. When you are against the 2nd amendment in a way or another then you don't give a fuck about what the founding fathers fought for. And yes indeed anyone who was in favor of the clinton gun ban and who follows obummer regarding stricter guns law is more or less anti american. When less guns are authorized for sale then only the scum and the illegal aliens are the only ones to have guns and commit crimes and the honest and law abidizing citizens can't defend themselves. Also remember what Nazi Germany, they started to forbid guns, then created a police state and then after that we know the result.

No. That is simply wrong. You have made the second amendment more important than every other amendment, and that's just ridiculous. Plus, saying that it makes people less or Anti American because they don't favour guns is simply ridiculous. Honestly, I don't really believe you could possibly think that. There are all kinds of major American figures that were anti-gun. They're still huge icons in American culture. Don't join the ridiculous fight for guns above all else, georges. It's appalling, short sighted, and unintelligent.

2. And you and your relatives have they even served in the US Armed forces? Both of my uncle served in Nam and two of my cousins served in the 1st Gulf war and Bosnian conflict. They give and send every year food, sock and money to other soldiers who are in the front lines. I too send money to them that is later given to the people who are at the front lines.I don't know about you.

YOU have not served in the American armed forces. I thank your extended family members for their service, and won't bring up those in my family who have served and continue to do so, because that's irrelevant. I financially support the troops, too, good for you. But, let's sum this up:
You have visited the United States 9 times.
You have family members who have served in the United States Armed Forces.
You like guns.
These three points, according to you, make you more American than I am, even though I am a citizen, I live here, I am able to vote, and I embrace American culture. Your first point, visiting 9 times, is ridiculous when you compare it to the fact that I live here. Your second point is cancelled out, as I, too, have family members serving. So I guess it comes down to you liking guns. That's what makes you American? That's pretty weak.

3. When you implement a policy of sharing misery by for example implementing a healthcare where system only hardworking law abiding citizens pay taxes in order that unwilling to work people benefit from a better healthcare system this is stealing and leeching which is what socialism acknowledges.You have zero idea of what is socialism so revise history my friend. In the USA, there is and will always be a place for the very individualistic, successful and self reliant people but the ones who who think that everything is due to them or that are limp wrists have no place in that country.

That is actually a socialised program, not a socialist agenda. There's a difference, and you can't grasp that. Also, if you were to understand Socialism, you would understand that "stealing and leeching" is not what Socialism "acknowledges." You are, yet again, allowing your personal opinion cloud your perspective. Georges doesn't like socialism, therefore it is a bad policy. And, with georges limited, inaccurate knowledge of Socialism, and program that has some Socialist aspects is going to be evil, and terrible.

Come, on, man. Look beyond your narrow world view for once in your bloody life.

And, your comment about limp wrists having no place in the country, there are huge numbers of gay Americans. More American than you, because, you know, they're actually Americans. There is every place for them. One more time - georges doesn't like homosexuals, therefore they have no place in America.

4. It was a copy paste of the french healthcare system which would benefit the Obama voters first and divide the country more than anything else. I am not astonished of how hard things are going to be hard for Obama who wants to increase the debt by trying to pass the affordable healthcare bill.

It wasn't a copy and paste of the French system, there were substantial differences. The French system would simply not work here. It has been decades in the making, you can't just drop it fully-formed onto the huge American medical community and expect it to work. There is a great deal more subtlety in the program proposed than that. I see your objection, though. Georges doesn't like the French health care system, he heard the word health care system being talked about in America, so he equated the two, and in his infinite wisdom, thinks they're some how the same.

5. Oh really? Yet, you continue to view Obama as a messiah like a lot naive people.

Please show me where I have every referred to the President as a messiah? not once, sir. He has plenty of policies that I disagree with. He's not the President I was hoping he would be. He's flawed, and his policies have not done what they needed to. That said, he is a heck of a lot better than either alternatives would have been in both 2008 and 2012. Don't believe me? Too bad. The American public voted, and you will live with a second term of President Barack Obama. Calling him bad names, and hating on him will not change that fact.
You don't like him because 1. he's a Democrat and, more importantly, 2. he's black. You can't reconcile yourself to the fact that a black man is in power. You probably also still believe he was born in Kenya and that he's a Muslim, despite the fact that it has been proved he was born in Hawaii and he goes to a Christian church.

6. Because rehabilitation is always the best way to give criminals a second chance, right? I hate a too big and too intrusive government kinda like the Obama 's administration and all his croonies because I know it is not a good thing. You like a nanny state apparently something I don't. You think that some criminals can be rehabilitated when in fact they should be fried on the electric chair or hanged on the public place. I don't impose anything my friend, you and others start to raise such a big blind and relentless admiration for a president who is more or less a foe of freedom but also more a community leader and a country divider than a country unifier. Freedom isn't free. You have rules in every state you will go and the constitution is also here to make sure that those are respected.

You do realise that President Obama has actually reduced the size of government from where it was under President Bush, right?

Okay, let me say it again, and I'll try to use small words, as you don't get it. I don't think President Obama is a messiah. He's a disappointment in many ways. I am not saying I don't believe in the death penalty because of the President. I've said it my whole life. Now, does that mean every prisoner can be rehabilitated? No. I don't think the current system is working at all. Do I know what the better alternative is? No, I don't. I'll keep hoping we find a better system.

But, to sum up:
1. there are very few (if any) people who seem to think as much of President Obama as you think we do. You're imposing something on Democrat-leaning people that isn't real.
2. You are incapable of distinguishing your personal perspectives from political views and discussions.
3. You want to dictate what others think - "If you think X, you're anti-American." - and so forth. That's not reasonable, nor is it intelligent.

Thank you for reading, I hope you have a nice day.
 

Mariahxxx

I am in my own little world but it's okay they know me here.
Official Checked Star Member
georges did you say the illegal aliens are the ones using guns in crimes? dude, where the FUCK do you get your information? I grew up in LA surrounded by illegals. Did YOU? they have a very low crime rate other than drinking. their kids are the ones we need to worry about. illegals from mexico work their asses off. you never see a mexican asking for a handout. never.

get your facts straight georges. as of now you're like a fucking parrot repeating the talking points from a rush limbaugh broadcast. you're embarrassing yourself.

and like it or not georges, france has the #1 ranked health care system in the world. the US is #38 right between Costa Rica and Slovania. yet we spend more on our health care than any other country. so what exactly is your objection to the french system? that you have to pay for it?

arent police and fire and mail and libraries and schools and roads socialism too georges?
 

amnenadrom

I should probably read the Board Rules...
while it is true that a jury must follow a judge's instructions in reaching a verdict, if the juror is not capable of absorbing all of the evidence then instructions are pretty much a waste of time and effort.

There is no real guarantee that a US citizen can absorb evidence and instructions better than a legal immigrant, as Petra has pointed out. If a person is unable to absorb evidence and instructions than the lawyers have made a mistake in voir dire, explaining the evidence, or creating the jury instructions they submitted to the judge - getting the jury to understand the facts is a lawyer's job. Think you also missed "clearly proven that the person wasn't guilty" - if it is clear it shouldn't be to hard to find that an error sufficient to warrant an appeal, probably in the jury instructions.

The jury also doesn't do the sentence aside from death penalty cases. This is left up to the Judge; though the sentencing capabilities are often limited by minimum sentencing requirements but that is a totally different matter outside the scope of this discussion.
 

Mariahxxx

I am in my own little world but it's okay they know me here.
Official Checked Star Member
again why is the word illegal ignored??????

they arent legal to be in this country, so why give them any rights at all? no privileges, no rights, no drivers license, NOTHING.
 
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