POLL: Should LEGAL Immigrants Be Called/Allowed To Serve On Juries?

[bobjustbob]

again why is the word illegal ignored??????

they arent legal to be in this country, so why give them any rights at all? no privileges, no rights, no drivers license, NOTHING.

I'm with this. Give you any rights? You don't fucking belong here. Get the fuck out.

 

[larss]

again why is the word illegal ignored??????

they arent legal to be in this country, so why give them any rights at all? no privileges, no rights, no drivers license, NOTHING.

The thread is about LEGAL immigrants, not illegal immigrants. People like my sister-in-law who immigrated from the UK 10 years ago.
She is intelligent, has a good job, pays taxes, has a mortgage but remains a UK citizen.
For what possible common sense reason should she be excluded from serving on a Jury?

 

[Mariahxxx]

ah my mistake, I didnt see that.

if you are here legally then by all means, enjoy jury duty. but illegals should NOT get anything other than a bus ride back to the place from which they came.

 

[georges]

1) No. That is simply wrong. You have made the second amendment more important than every other amendment, and that's just ridiculous. Plus, saying that it makes people less or Anti American because they don't favour guns is simply ridiculous. Honestly, I don't really believe you could possibly think that. There are all kinds of major American figures that were anti-gun. They're still huge icons in American culture. Don't join the ridiculous fight for guns above all else, georges. It's appalling, short sighted, and unintelligent.

2)YOU have not served in the American armed forces. I thank your extended family members for their service, and won't bring up those in my family who have served and continue to do so, because that's irrelevant. I financially support the troops, too, good for you. But, let's sum this up:
You have visited the United States 9 times.
You have family members who have served in the United States Armed Forces.
You like guns.
These three points, according to you, make you more American than I am, even though I am a citizen, I live here, I am able to vote, and I embrace American culture. Your first point, visiting 9 times, is ridiculous when you compare it to the fact that I live here. Your second point is cancelled out, as I, too, have family members serving. So I guess it comes down to you liking guns. That's what makes you American? That's pretty weak.


3)That is actually a socialised program, not a socialist agenda. There's a difference, and you can't grasp that. Also, if you were to understand Socialism, you would understand that "stealing and leeching" is not what Socialism "acknowledges." You are, yet again, allowing your personal opinion cloud your perspective. Georges doesn't like socialism, therefore it is a bad policy. And, with georges limited, inaccurate knowledge of Socialism, and program that has some Socialist aspects is going to be evil, and terrible.

Come, on, man. Look beyond your narrow world view for once in your bloody life. And, your comment about limp wrists having no place in the country, there are huge numbers of gay Americans. More American than you, because, you know, they're actually Americans. There is every place for them. One more time - georges doesn't like homosexuals, therefore they have no place in America.

4) It wasn't a copy and paste of the French system, there were substantial differences. The French system would simply not work here. It has been decades in the making, you can't just drop it fully-formed onto the huge American medical community and expect it to work. There is a great deal more subtlety in the program proposed than that. I see your objection, though. Georges doesn't like the French health care system, he heard the word health care system being talked about in America, so he equated the two, and in his infinite wisdom, thinks they're some how the same.

5) Please show me where I have every referred to the President as a messiah? not once, sir. He has plenty of policies that I disagree with. He's not the President I was hoping he would be. He's flawed, and his policies have not done what they needed to. That said, he is a heck of a lot better than either alternatives would have been in both 2008 and 2012. Don't believe me? Too bad. The American public voted, and you will live with a second term of President Barack Obama. Calling him bad names, and hating on him will not change that fact. You don't like him because 1. he's a Democrat and, more importantly, 2. he's black. You can't reconcile yourself to the fact that a black man is in power. You probably also still believe he was born in Kenya and that he's a Muslim, despite the fact that it has been proved he was born in Hawaii and he goes to a Christian church.


6) You do realise that President Obama has actually reduced the size of government from where it was under President Bush, right? Okay, let me say it again, and I'll try to use small words, as you don't get it. I don't think President Obama is a messiah. He's a disappointment in many ways. I am not saying I don't believe in the death penalty because of the President. I've said it my whole life. Now, does that mean every prisoner can be rehabilitated? No. I don't think the current system is working at all. Do I know what the better alternative is? No, I don't. I'll keep hoping we find a better system.

But, to sum up:
1. there are very few (if any) people who seem to think as much of President Obama as you think we do. You're imposing something on Democrat-leaning people that isn't real.
2. You are incapable of distinguishing your personal perspectives from political views and discussions.
3. You want to dictate what others think - "If you think X, you're anti-American." - and so forth. That's not reasonable, nor is it intelligent.

Thank you for reading, I hope you have a nice day.

1) So when this amendment will be modified or weakened to the max, you will give no shit about it. Ok, fair enough. Want it or not, guns have been part of the American Culture since two centuries and it is not going to slow down. I know that Mrs Gifford was and is antigun after what happened to her http://news.yahoo.com/gabby-gifford...s-head-head-130025535--abc-news-politics.html. Understandable but banning guns is not a solution.

2) No, I haven't but I thank them for many things they during WWII and after WWII, which is why I have a deep respect for them. More American than you? not really. But I am more pro American than some Europeans I know.

3) Socialized has the word social. Just look at how well countries like Portugal, Spain, Greece and France are doing after being under a socialist regime. Gays are not the problem, the problem is paying for others people insurance and healthcare, this is real problem and this is what this socialized program or socialist program demands. A limp wrist is an unwilling to work parasite living of others people's revenue but also getting food coupons and free health care.

4) Most of your healthcare firms and your best hospitals are private not public and you expect them to give them the same level of care to people who have no money and no revenue to pay their own healthcare and medicaments? You are dreaming. I don't equate the two but at the end it will make things far worse than they are.

5) No, I don't believe you when you that Obummer was a better choice than Mitt Romney. If Obummer was elected its mainly and mostly thanks to the minorities. Are you 100% sure that he is a christian? Many people will disagree with you and same about his birth certificate claiming that he was born in Hawaii. The problem are his policies and the fact that he divides the nation more than anything else.

6) Ok fine at least I will thank you for your honesty. Good luck in finding a better judicial system, but I hardly thing that there will be an alternative

 

[georges]

georges did you say the illegal aliens are the ones using guns in crimes? dude, where the FUCK do you get your information? I grew up in LA surrounded by illegals. Did YOU? they have a very low crime rate other than drinking. their kids are the ones we need to worry about. illegals from mexico work their asses off. you never see a mexican asking for a handout. never.

get your facts straight georges. as of now you're like a fucking parrot repeating the talking points from a rush limbaugh broadcast. you're embarrassing yourself.

and like it or not georges, france has the #1 ranked health care system in the world. the US is #38 right between Costa Rica and Slovania. yet we spend more on our health care than any other country. so what exactly is your objection to the french system? that you have to pay for it?

arent police and fire and mail and libraries and schools and roads socialism too georges?

How surprising? to quote you in the other post: "but illegals should NOT get anything other than a bus ride back to the place from which they came." And don't tell me that you felt safer with having them in your neighborhood because often they end and hang with the wrong and become criminals.

I don't give a fuck about Rush Limbaugh to be honest with you and I am not his parrot, you are more embarrassing yourself of constantly portraying Obama as a hero than something else

The French healthcare system isn't number 1 anymore and is going to shit in terms of quality of health care. The best doctors leave the public hospitals for private ones and it is getting privatized more and more which is a very good thing because I and several other millions of people are bloodily tired of people who aren't working and who never worked but who get their healthcare and social security paid by people who work their asses off. Some medicaments aren't reimbursed by the french social security had to cut down the reimbursement of some medicaments because it faces a huge debt. I want to insure myself at my own level and not to pay the broken budvases for others

 

[Mariahxxx]

georges, blacks make up for 12% of the american population. 1/4 of the black men are in prison or on parole and cannot vote. the reason obama one was because he was more popular with EVERYONE, including whites.

you claim all the people who will get the health care are unemployed leeches on society. You do realize that we have an unemployed population of under 10% right? so how would ALL of the people using the health care be people not working??? How about the people who work 2 jobs and still can't afford health care? How about people whose company they work for doesn't provide care any longer and they can't afford it? My step father who I have mentioned before works for ATT and 3 years ago they switched him over to an HMO and his care now sucks compared to what it was before and they still deduct the same amount from his paycheck every week to pay for part of it.

Our country allows companies to not pay a living wage. Our wages have grown at a rate of 30% to the increased cost of living, so obviously even working people who as you say "work their asses off" can no longer afford medical care.

Not to mention georges, health care is now a for-profit business. Their formula is the least amount of care for the most amount of money. Did you know that Blue Cross Blue Shield, the largest health care provider in the USA has a policy to automatically deny every claim of more than $10,000? Should that be legal? How about people with preexisting conditions? until Obamacare they couldnt get coverage.

And you are absolutely wrong georges, the french health care system is still #1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems they are #4 in per capita spending on their health care system. The US is ranked #38 (we dropped a spot since last year!) and yet we spend more than anyone else on a failing system.

every one of those countries 1 -37 have nationalized health care. think that's a coincidence georges? of those 37 how many having a problem with enormous medical debt on their citizens that cause 1 million people to declare bankruptcy? ZERO in the top countries had a single filing of bankruptcy due to medical debt. The USA? 1 million every year.

So keep your head in the sand dude, but you are being ignorant and embarrassing yourself.

 

[larss]

These are the most eye opening stats that I have seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_systems#International_comparisons

Out of the countries listed USA has the worst life expectancy (2 years less than UK), the worst infant mortality rate at 5.9/1000, the worst preventable deaths and yet has the highest per capita expenditure.

 

[Mariahxxx]

yes larrs but you can't tell that to a republican. they don't acknowledge those facts because its all poor people who make those stats a reality

 

[lurkingdirk]

1) So when this amendment will be modified or weakened to the max, you will give no shit about it. Ok, fair enough. Want it or not, guns have been part of the American Culture since two centuries and it is not going to slow down. I know that Mrs Gifford was and is antigun after what happened to her http://news.yahoo.com/gabby-gifford...s-head-head-130025535--abc-news-politics.html. Understandable but banning guns is not a solution.

I am not contesting that guns have been part of the history of this nation, but I would ask you if you honestly believe that when the Amendment was drafted - did gun ownership mean exactly the same thing as it does now? No. It doesn't. Does that mean we should reevaluate in a contemporary society? Yes, it does. Does that mean I'm for weakening the second Amendment? No, it doesn't. But...IT WARRANTS A DISCUSSION. Just saying "guns for everyone" is simply stupid in contemporary culture. It requires more thought than that, plain and simple. Don't think this makes me think all guns need to go away. There is more than black and white in this (and every other) issue, you don't seem willing to accept that any view other than yours has any merit. Think again.

2) No, I haven't but I thank them for many things they during WWII and after WWII, which is why I have a deep respect for them. More American than you? not really. But I am more pro American than some Europeans I know.

Who cares how pro American you are? You don't live here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't support the country by serving in the military or voting or anything. Congratulations on your pro American leanings. It doesn't mean anything to Americans, except perhaps on an individual, personal level. How your government treats America and Americans is how the bulk of Americans will judge you.

3) Socialized has the word social. Just look at how well countries like Portugal, Spain, Greece and France are doing after being under a socialist regime. Gays are not the problem, the problem is paying for others people insurance and healthcare, this is real problem and this is what this socialized program or socialist program demands. A limp wrist is an unwilling to work parasite living of others people's revenue but also getting food coupons and free health care.

Socialized has the world social? Well, damn. I thought I had reading comprehension skills. How could I possibly have missed that?
You do not have a good grasp on the health care proposals. I'm not going further into it with you than that. You're simply unrelenting, and you refuse to learn any perspective other than your own.

4) Most of your healthcare firms and your best hospitals are private not public and you expect them to give them the same level of care to people who have no money and no revenue to pay their own healthcare and medicaments? You are dreaming. I don't equate the two but at the end it will make things far worse than they are.

You need to understand, the universities, and research centres here in the U.S. have great care. Other than that, the quality of medical care in the U.S. is not superior to other nations. Those universities and research centres are government funded. Hugely.
And can you explain why you believe, please be specific and point to valid studies and models, that a privatised medical system is better than a federally funded by taxes and what not is? Be specific. I'll wait.

5) No, I don't believe you when you that Obummer was a better choice than Mitt Romney. If Obummer was elected its mainly and mostly thanks to the minorities. Are you 100% sure that he is a christian? Many people will disagree with you and same about his birth certificate claiming that he was born in Hawaii. The problem are his policies and the fact that he divides the nation more than anything else.

Please point to one thing that Governor Romney put on his platform that was realistic and better? Thanks.
Also, If you're still believing that he wasn't born in the U.S., I have bad news for you. You're likely not completely sane. I hope you get that sorted out.
In addition, a while ago the GOP was all honked off because the Pastor of Obama (at a Christian church, mind you), was part of something they didn't like. He was part of a Christian church then, but that tactic didn't work, so let's call him anti-Christian? I'm disappointed, georges. That's just plain weak.

Also, his policies do not divide the nation more than poverty, more than crime, more than hateful rhetoric, more than....the list goes on and on and on. That is exactly the same sort of statement that idiot GOPers have been making, and I quote: "Obamacare is the worst legislation that has ever happened in the world." Yeah. Remember the Nazis? The Communists? Clearly, providing affordable health care to lower incomes is worse than the eradication of the Jews, and so forth. Dial down the rhetoric, stop being stupidly partisan, and perhaps we can have a conversation.

6) Ok fine at least I will thank you for your honesty. Good luck in finding a better judicial system, but I hardly thing that there will be an alternative

The rest of the world seems to be abandoning the death penalty. Are hundreds of countries wrong?

 

[Mariahxxx]

Im all for the death penalty. I am for speeding up the appeals process so they dont get 20 years of cable tv and hot meals. I also believe in torture. I also believe that if someone rapes someone, then as a punishment they should be raped. let the punishment fit and mimic the crime.

 

[Jack Davenport]

There is no real guarantee that a US citizen can absorb evidence and instructions better than a legal immigrant, as Petra has pointed out. If a person is unable to absorb evidence and instructions than the lawyers have made a mistake in voir dire, explaining the evidence, or creating the jury instructions they submitted to the judge - getting the jury to understand the facts is a lawyer's job. Think you also missed "clearly proven that the person wasn't guilty" - if it is clear it shouldn't be to hard to find that an error sufficient to warrant an appeal, probably in the jury instructions.

The jury also doesn't do the sentence aside from death penalty cases. This is left up to the Judge; though the sentencing capabilities are often limited by minimum sentencing requirements but that is a totally different matter outside the scope of this discussion.

there is no evidence thank god because it isn't happening and rightfully so. There are a lot of social experiments going on in this country right now but non citizens deciding the fate of US citizens ain't happening. There are some innate advantages to being an American citizen, and experiences in everyday life that ultimately give someone at least a grasp of how the legal system works. I would never have any qualms with a newly naturalized citizen being seated as they have undergone the requirements and have understanding perhaps even more than natural born citizens.
This crap that if they can't absorb the evidence the lawyers haven't done their job is bullshit. Some people can give all the right answers appear to be cognizant and still not be able to properly weigh the evidence. I doubt even jury consultants would accept the blame for those that fell through the cracks and they get paid exclvsively to find suitable jurors. anyway, this is a stupid argument. Non citizens wovld never serve no matter their legal accumen. When and if that day comes, and if I am not retired from the profession, I would be at that very moment.

 

[Jack Davenport]

And one other thing son. While I appreciate the refresher course from my 2L textbooks. I have been a practicing attorney for over 20 years. Saue your legalese and limited experience to impress some pussy you'll be much happier.

 

[lurkingdirk]

And one other thing son. While I appreciate the refresher course from my 2L textbooks. I have been a practicing attorney for over 20 years. Saue your legalese and limited experience to impress some pussy you'll be much happier.

If I cite you for sexy behaviour, will my legal acumen get me into your briefs?

 

[Jack Davenport]

Motion to diss

 

[lurkingdirk]

Granted, baby.

 

[bobjustbob]

You know what, if you've got a job as an illegal then you have done something that lots of people choose not to do. Many, many, many people want to get by on life not working. Ride the system. I don't know. Some come here and drag their education and medical shit with them. Many come here wanting to learn the language and be a part of everything. Welcome to you all. Let me know when you are all going to march a parade near by. I'll buy something off your truck or cart. Brick and mortar? What will you charge for a leveled lawn or a new foundation? How about American children learning a second language? Teach it to mom and dad.


We understand the colonies and eastern expansion into the west pretty well. The Spanish did a pretty good job in the west. Caribbean as well. Don't deny these people some of sort of contribution to USA.

 

[Mayhem]

You know what, if you've got a job as an illegal then you have done something that lots of people choose not to do. Many, many, many people want to get by on life not working. Ride the system. I don't know. Some come here and drag their education and medical shit with them. Many come here wanting to learn the language and be a part of everything. Welcome to you all. Let me know when you are all going to march a parade near by. I'll buy something off your truck or cart. Brick and mortar? What will you charge for a leveled lawn or a new foundation? How about American children learning a second language? Teach it to mom and dad.


We understand the colonies and eastern expansion into the west pretty well. The Spanish did a pretty good job in the west. Caribbean as well. Don't deny these people some of sort of contribution to USA.

^^^ Excellent post.

 

[georges]

georges, blacks make up for 12% of the american population. 1/4 of the black men are in prison or on parole and cannot vote. the reason obama one was because he was more popular with EVERYONE, including whites.

you claim all the people who will get the health care are unemployed leeches on society. You do realize that we have an unemployed population of under 10% right? so how would ALL of the people using the health care be people not working??? How about the people who work 2 jobs and still can't afford health care? How about people whose company they work for doesn't provide care any longer and they can't afford it? My step father who I have mentioned before works for ATT and 3 years ago they switched him over to an HMO and his care now sucks compared to what it was before and they still deduct the same amount from his paycheck every week to pay for part of it.

Our country allows companies to not pay a living wage. Our wages have grown at a rate of 30% to the increased cost of living, so obviously even working people who as you say "work their asses off" can no longer afford medical care.

Not to mention georges, health care is now a for-profit business. Their formula is the least amount of care for the most amount of money. Did you know that Blue Cross Blue Shield, the largest health care provider in the USA has a policy to automatically deny every claim of more than $10,000? Should that be legal? How about people with preexisting conditions? until Obamacare they couldnt get coverage.

And you are absolutely wrong georges, the french health care system is still #1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems they are #4 in per capita spending on their health care system. The US is ranked #38 (we dropped a spot since last year!) and yet we spend more than anyone else on a failing system.

every one of those countries 1 -37 have nationalized health care. think that's a coincidence georges? of those 37 how many having a problem with enormous medical debt on their citizens that cause 1 million people to declare bankruptcy? ZERO in the top countries had a single filing of bankruptcy due to medical debt. The USA? 1 million every year.

So keep your head in the sand dude, but you are being ignorant and embarrassing yourself.

You get real and stop wearing blinders, la milano. First of all, only 39% of whites voted for Obummer that is not an overwhelming majority of white voters and the election of Obama was mostly due to minorities see attached files and check the links http://reappropriate.co/?tag=barack-obama , here http://www.businessinsider.com/voting-by-sex-age-race-money-and-education-2012-11 and http://www.people-press.org/2012/11/26/young-voters-supported-obama-less-but-may-have-mattered-more/
When someone doesn't work or doesn't want to work so that means that you will agree to pay everything for him including food coupons, healthcare and social security for all his life without any questioning? I didn't know you liked to share the others misery that much but this is typical of someone who likes the socialists and their ideas. You already told me about your stepfather, why didn't he prosecute ATT in court back in time for what they did to his healthcare system?
Depends who can afford and no afford healthcare, in the cases of an IT Engineer or some bank/finance manager whereas someone who works on a part time low qualified job at 7-11 or at wall mart, things will be of course different. The cost of living is due to taxes but also to the cost of manufacturing of the products as well as other costs like the one of raw materials, packaging, assembling, advertising as well as currencies exchange rates.
Even in France, my dear Mariah health care is now profit because most of the best doctors left public hospitals and went to private ones because of better salaries and because private hospitals are supported by the biggest healthcare firms but also some medicaments aren't reimbursed anymore and are replaced by generic ones. Regarding your link about the french healthcare system it is a report that dates from the year 2000, so from 13 years ago which isn't valid anymore , so your claims about the french healthcare system being first are out of context Things have changed in France and the health care system is rapidly degrading and getting privatized.

 

[larss]

Regarding your link about the french healthcare system it is a report that dates from the year 2000, so from 13 years ago which isn't valid anymore , so your claims about the french healthcare system being first are out of context Things have changed in France and the health care system is rapidly degrading and getting privatized.

So what you are saying is that France had a better health care system when it was NOT privatised.
In other words healthcare is best when it is run as a socialised system.

 

[bobjustbob]

We are on the cusp of a doctor shortage. Fact. Look it up, 3 or 4 years from now what will we have? More people entering the medical profession as primary care providers or potential primary care providers saying,"fuck that". I'm looking for a doctor that understands all of that shit.

I did get into the .gov site. Now I'm into a dot-some-state shit. They want my e-mail. Say I live in Asbury Park and don't have a dot anythig? I have 3 months to get a dot or get fined.