Questioning the holocaust ... in Iran ...

[the_pervert]

EDIT 14x

 

[BNF]

Yes, really. Congratulations on being a sheep and believing everything the media tells you.

Your kind of thinly veiled racist, supremest sheep aren't welcome here.

("Research" to prove your point will lead you to the conclusion you want, be it the type of cheese the moon is made of, the phaenomenon of spontaneous human combustion and especially a anti-Semetic agendas.)

What you have heard is a lie.

That's right - your little group of haters are the only ones who know the truth. (sarcasm)

 

[Torre82]

Whelp, I'm back from my MST3K.. and.. its time to go RIGHT back to it. Best of luck killing off the simpletons.

I agree that everybody has somewhat of a right to an opinion.. but ignoring historical fact? Thats where the personal agenda cuts into your intelligence.

BNF, I have to say.. I've never been so happy to see one of your posts. :hats off to you:

 

[Dean Wormer]

Denying that the holocaust happened is like denying that earthquakes happen in California or that tornadoes do not happen in the midwest.

 

[D-rock]

Ahh, holocaust deniers, in the world only modern day geocentrist and the Flat Earth Society can come close to their abject denial of absolutely overwhelming amounts of evidence to the contrary. It's probably easier to argue the sky isn't blue. I however have no problem with them saying what they want. Not only because it's free speech, but I want what they say to be recorded for history with their names next to it and their reputation on the line. I wish they would all come out in fact. That way for the rest of time we can all look back and point to it when we want to show what complete idiots they are.

 

[Aegis]

I'm not against holocauset denial being legal, however much I personally dislike it. I really don't see much point in the Iranian conference. It's just a bunch of hateful and hypocritical people sharing their BS views. I don't just see this as more of the usual hatred towards Israel, but also as a continuing response to the Muhammed cartoons. I'm just hoping that we won't see too much of the muslim world support this conference.

 

[smallville206]

I'm pretty much in line with your thinking Aegis. It's still hard to believe there are people like the pervert out there. If they could only experience a Twilight Zone type episode and stand in the shoes of people who have been brutalized as a race. I'm just thankful I have never met anyone like him personally in my life (unless they hid their true feelings of course).

 

[pickles&cumquat]

I disagree with all of you on this:

(1) I think it is obvious to all of us that some form of anti-semitism drives these accusations, even if some of the Iranians are blissfully unaware of that.

(2) On the other hand, I think they have the right idea - questioning historical events that westerners take for granted. I think they have the wrong historical "event". I think events like the Reichstag Fire and - ahem - others, such as the assassinations during the 60s - I think those should be questioned more. The Holocaust: it would be hard to fake.

(3) I think people misquote Ahmadinejad vastly. For all of his anti-semitism he asks some very pertinent questions about who writes the history books, and about why the Holocaust is an empathetic tragedy for all of us, but what happened to the Palestinians not so many years later is not, and why people do not hurt similarly for the millions of Slavs, disabled people, gays, blacks killed by Hitler... and the millions of Russians killed by Stalin. I guess my point would be: there are museums and history lessons abound and Hollywood movies to show us the tragedy of the 6 million Jews that died. The other "demographics" that were obliterated by Stalin and Hitler are relatively ignored by history - relatively. Some people believe that the reason why this is, is that in the (quite unlawful) creation of Israel, the "world" needed to hear more about the Jewish deaths to be sympathetic with the Jews, than to be sympathetic with the Russians (who were then the enemy of the western world) or the blacks (whom did still not have equal rights in America at the time Israel was created) or gays (who still do not have equal rights in America to this day).

(4) One of only two things I despise about Ahmadinejad is that he is a brilliant man blinded by his own anti-semitism. Another thing is that he is a brilliant man blinded by his own piousness. Those two things mean he is not a good ruler for Iran, and the students of Iran agree. The reason I applaud him on the other hand are for his intelligence (to see through other lies of the west and present them in ways that his people and all people can understand), and for having the guts to stand up to the world's playground bully.

I chose "Free Speech": fair enough. I believe that even though questioning the holocaust is offensive and ridiculous, it's their right to do it. However, the next line "I think it's an unbiased conference"... that's just not fair. Where's my option if I believe in free speech but think it's a very, very, very biased conference?

That's where Islamic teachings always leave me with a frustrated feeling. They say all the right things - why is America's way "the" way? Why are we cut off if we try any other way? And I say, YES, YES, YES.

And then they inevitably have to turn to "and when will Israel cease to exist?"

I wish I could grab the entire Muslim world tell them to WAKE UP. There is nothing wrong with standing up to the west, and the Muslim world SHOULD be standing up to the west, as the oil pipelines and tankers continue to flow and sail westwards and the people of the Middle East continue to struggle with sub par profits from the most valuable mineral assets on the planet.

But they must realize which battles to LET GO. They cannot win by trying to abolish Israel. In time, in change, Israel and Palestine can and will coexist, it is the only way.

I am not talking about "Muslims need to stop blowing shit up" because I'm not blind enough to pretend or imagine that anything more than 1% or 2% of the Muslim world OR the Middle East support terrorism and violence in the name of Allah.

But I am talking about Muslims NOT BLAMING THE JEWS ANYMORE. If Israel is an illegal state, that is because of America, and Britain, and the other Allies. The Israelis are just doing what any people in that situation would do: relying on their LIMITED western backing and fighting for existence. The Muslim world MUST let the Israel thing GO and MUST start realizing that it is ANTI SEMITISM that drives the "get rid of israel" rather than a true unbiased sense of justice.

And it's important to say that even though a large percentage of the Muslim world does have anti-semitic feelings - they really do, and I say this from experience - there is also a large percentage of the Muslim world that does not. And those that are anti-semitic - there are varying degrees of it. But Ahmadinejad could not get away with this, if his people were not at least partly thinking along the same lines. If Ahmadinejad came out supporting terrorism, the people of Iran would instantly and swiftly overthrow him, I promise you. His power in Iran only depends upon how long the very revolutionary people allow it. That is WHY protests are banned and what not. Because he is AFRAID OF HIS PEOPLE.

However, by standing up to America, he has given them the masterstroke. It was the only thing that could have saved his career. Because if there's one thing Iranians are, more than anti-Ahmadinejad, it's anti-bullying western power that is trying to take over the entire region. So he knows what he is doing. He is a very very smart fucking man.

Just as when westerners say "bring freedom to the Iraqis" or whatever bullshit any of you individually, no names mentioned, may believe, you do not really know what you are talking about, because you base your assumptions on pre-existing AND media-created feelings about what Iraq was/is like.

I wonder if any of this makes any sense to any of you.

So what I am saying is: free speech is free speech. In Iran, free speech only exists as long as it is along government lines, but I can say that I SYMPATHIZE:

I understand why, in a world where money rules and (the way I see it, the way Iran sees it) the bullies are standing by to incite political change and take over the oil, to do anything they can to subvert the non-friendly (aka non submissive government - what do you think the CIA DOES?) leaders, I WOULD BE PARANOID TOO...

I understand why they take out their frustration on Israel and the Jews - just in the same way as I understand why I have to argue with people who say there has never been a good black QB in the NFL (one member said that) and how different races should stick together and not mix (that came up a few times on the now closed interracial sex thread). It infuriates me, but I completely understand. I can see it how they see it. I can see it how the Israelis see it. If you try, you can put yourself in their place. See things the way they see things. We're all human, we're all starting in the same place.

But what's with the poll titles? If I want to say "it's politics" then I have to say "Israel should not exist"? If I want to say "free speech" then I have to say "it's unbiased"?

And "Absolute Agenda" is basically - the same thing as what the Iranians are doing, imo. Hatemongering.

If you had been through what Middle Easterners have been through BECAUSE OF THE WESTERN INFLUENCE AND DOMINANCE OVER THE REASON - then you would have some pretty fucked up, extreme and one sided views, too.

In fact: I would be willing to put money on the fact that all of us - everyone that thinks they are on the side of right and virtue and these Iranians are beyond reprehensibility for these disgusting claims - have extremely biased, uninformed, media-influenced, one-sided and honestly, fucked up, views of what the Middle East is.

And those, gentlemen, are just a few of my opinions on the subject.

Fox

You make it sound like you are the only one who is informed. There are plenty of citizens in the USA, Canada, Britain, wherever else you wish to label who make informed decisions everyday.

While I agree that freedom of speech is freedom of speech, in Iran it's not that simple as you have pointed out. It's only freedom of speech when it's anti Western World - otherwise the van comes and scoops you up to be tortured before you disappear for ever.

No system is flawless, but the system that works best, is the one that allows the most freedoms to the average citizen, not one which restricts his/her every movement. (despite the challenges we face in this century)

A big bone of contention that I have with some of you posts is always claiming that to the victor go the spoils of war and the chance to write history. While true in principle, there are many sources which show a more realistic view of the events leading up to, during, and following any form of disagreement.

Its not like such books are banned in America/Canada/Western World... in fact, the UK is full of such books. If your hobby is as such, you will have found many different sources and opinions of events, and usually the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I will agree with you one one thing, if you only get your news from CNN, then yes, you are a biased propaganda listening individual who is feed what the war machine wants you to hear.

Also keep in mind, that most people don't need to know that intricate details of everything that happens. For some, seeing a few pictures of the holocaust and seeing a few movies is enough for them. No one in their right mind would refute the holocaust while at the same time, it makes some sick to their stomachs to read and/or know more about it than that.

Since man first got angry at his rival, genocide has been occurring. I don't see you standing up for the innocent victims of Dar fur.

You feel so sorry for the Arabs in the world, what about the Blacks they are massacring in Africa.....Are you making any political noise to bring the attention to the US govt, since, the UN is powerless to do anything. Probably not, since you haven't mentioned a word of it.

Why do you live in the US if you hate it so much?

 

[georges]

In my country , you can be traded in court for denying the holocaust. Amadinejahd is an antisemitic piece of shit and I ran isn't a country I would trust.

 

[DevinnLaneLover]

A couple of things I've wondered about:

Let's say the Holocaust was a total made up outright lie/scheme. 6 Million Jews "disappeared" during this time so I'd like to know where did they really go? Mordor? The Shire? To a really long movie? Atlantis?

And if this was a huge vast conspiracy wouldn't it have been found out by now?There would be no way in hell you could get 6 million people and all their offspring and not have a few blabbermouths who would tell all. Funny no one ever seems to think this (in the Holocaust was fake crowd of course).

There will always be nuts who will refuse any sort of logic, but come on....

:2 cents:

 

[Werewolf]

Maybe WWII didn't really happen... Instead about 60 Million People - including 6000000 Jews - were abducted by Aliens... Of course it happened! No one with an IQ over 15 can deny that. That conference is anti-semitic bullshit!

 

[Torre82]

A couple of things I've wondered about:

Let's say the Holocaust was a total made up outright lie/scheme. 6 Million Jews "disappeared" during this time so I'd like to know where did they really go? Mordor? The Shire? To a really long movie? Atlantis?

And if this was a huge vast conspiracy wouldn't it have been found out by now?There would be no way in hell you could get 6 million people and all their offspring and not have a few blabbermouths who would tell all. Funny no one ever seems to think this (in the Holocaust was fake crowd of course).

There will always be nuts who will refuse any sort of logic, but come on....

:2 cents:

Uncle Frodo doesnt appreciate your blabbering about our secret hiding place!

Oh wait, nevermind.. my ancestors are actually dead. :shrug: Plus the shire doors are so low to the ground. My jewish hobbit ancestors.. "Yiddits" live on mostly in memory. It seems our population is mostly centered in New York, Chicago and various Russian cities. It doesnt pay to be one of the chosen people. History has shown us that so very, very many times. And on that note.. my back hurts too much to keep typing, I need to take my pills and probably open the window in the bedroom a tad so I can breathe!

 

[Member2019]

It's not illegal in the US ... (so why did people make anti-American statements?)

I'm not really sure what the question is here.

I asked what you thought of the conference in Iran.
I also made other commentary as well, and solicited it too.

I don't think that it should be illegal to deny the holocaust.

And it's not in the US.

I think this proves my point that some people on this board (not yourself, I'm talking about others) will turn anything into an anti-American set of statements. Other, European nations make it illegal to deny the holocaust, but not the US. So how these people can say the attitudes around the holocaust are America's fault or the American way is beyond me.

I will once again point out the US is a nation of 8 million of Jewish faith and 10 million of Islamic faith. I have many of both -- probably even more Islamic than Jewish, although quite a number of Hindu too -- as my colleagues, my peers and my friends who have beliefs I truly enjoy learning about. Then again, I appreciate the concept of "God in many forms."

Which is why I asked the real question, why not have it here? The US is free. Many openly anti-semetic groups have their conferences here. No, this isn't about "free speech," it's about a "political agenda." One in a country that has one of the worst histories on "free speech."

Yes, in the US, it would be "unpopular speech." But it would still be free. Unlike many places in Europe.

 

[baltimoreguy]

In my country , you can be traded in court for denying the holocaust. Amadinejahd is an antisemitic piece of shit and I ran isn't a country I would trust.

its pronounced E-Rahn

 

[BNF]

its pronounced E-Rahn

Out of everything happening in this thread and georges' post and you pick that...

 

[Iamforever]

its pronounced E-Rahn

Out of everything happening in this thread and georges' post and you pick that...

the man does have a point. this isnt english class junior.

 

[Philbert]

When I was a younger man, I spent a bit of time hanging with my best friend Alan, son of Polish Jews. Often, when a holiday came around, I would have dinner with them. Several of their friends would be there, and often, for our bebfit, stories would be told of their early lives in Poland and Russia and Germany.
These were , for the most part, quiet well mannered kind folks; some were tailors, accountants, teachers, and various common jobs found in motivated, educated immigrant populations of the '50's and 60's.
My bud's dad told one story to me that illustrates the difference between the dehumanizing systematic murder of an entire group of people and, say, not treating a homosexual nice.
The family was eating dinner one night, in Warsaw where they lived, when the German soldiers came to the house.
They came in the house, announced to the terrified family that they were being transported, no specifics, and to get up and put on their coats.
Of course, there was a good deal of panic and shock for them, they were just a normal family of parents, grandparents, and children.
During the event, the German in charge decided it was too much trouble to deal with the elderly grandmother, so he shot her dead there at the dinner table. The rest of the family was transported to the Warsaw ghetto.
Of course, there is a good deal more of the story (Alan's Dad became an underground fighter, after escaping the ghetto through the sewers), and the things that happened to the few surviving family members since the War.
But that's not important now...
For those of us growing up in the USA, around various friends whose lovely moms had crude blue numbers tatooed on their forearms, the reality of Holocaust denial has a completely different meaning.
When are the trucks going to start coming for us again?
Who will it be this time, the same neighbors we grew up amongst as children? The people we have worked among and had BBQs with, like it was in Germany, Poland, and most of Europe?
After all, there are few places like Denmark left in ths modern world, and plenty of distance between the events of WWII and today.
I feel a cold sense of dread when I read some of the posts here, and articles from various sources that don't have a clue what the difference is between "good" and "Evil".
There is a world of difference between bad treatment and wholesale murder; I have seen some of the photos American soldiers took when they "liberated" some of the camps, shown to me by the old soldiers who took them.
They weren't gov't issue, they are for real and so is the threat of fundamentalist evil.

 

[calpoon]

"Germany implemented the 'final solution' of it's 'Jewish problem' as a textbook exercise in instrumental reasoning. Humanity briefly shuddered when it could no longer avert it's gaze to what had happened, when the photographs taken by the killers themselves began to circulate, and when the pitiful survivors re-emerged into the light. But in the end it made no difference. The same logic, the same cold and ruthless application of calculating reason, slaughtered at least as many people during the next twenty years as had fallen victim to the technicians of the thousand year Reich. We have learned nothing."

-Joseph Weizenbaum

 

[Neromak]

Ok in my view it happened. Here's why I think so:

Everyone knows the german third reich was a stickler for keeping records. But I think most of those records were destroyed BUT there is the issue of the shoes?
Didn't the allies find a big warehouse packed with an estimated six million pairs of shoes belonging to the people that were murdered.
The question is - six million (roughly) people were murdered but how many were jews, the nazi's killed more than just jews after all.

I don't think anyone will ever know the real numbers.

 

[georges]

You make it sound like you are the only one who is informed. There are plenty of citizens in the USA, Canada, Britain, wherever else you wish to label who make informed decisions everyday.

While I agree that freedom of speech is freedom of speech, in Iran it's not that simple as you have pointed out. It's only freedom of speech when it's anti Western World - otherwise the van comes and scoops you up to be tortured before you disappear for ever.

No system is flawless, but the system that works best, is the one that allows the most freedoms to the average citizen, not one which restricts his/her every movement. (despite the challenges we face in this century)

A big bone of contention that I have with some of you posts is always claiming that to the victor go the spoils of war and the chance to write history. While true in principle, there are many sources which show a more realistic view of the events leading up to, during, and following any form of disagreement.

Its not like such books are banned in America/Canada/Western World... in fact, the UK is full of such books. If your hobby is as such, you will have found many different sources and opinions of events, and usually the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I will agree with you one one thing, if you only get your news from CNN, then yes, you are a biased propaganda listening individual who is feed what the war machine wants you to hear.

Also keep in mind, that most people don't need to know that intricate details of everything that happens. For some, seeing a few pictures of the holocaust and seeing a few movies is enough for them. No one in their right mind would refute the holocaust while at the same time, it makes some sick to their stomachs to read and/or know more about it than that.

Since man first got angry at his rival, genocide has been occurring. I don't see you standing up for the innocent victims of Dar fur.

You feel so sorry for the Arabs in the world, what about the Blacks they are massacring in Africa.....Are you making any political noise to bring the attention to the US govt, since, the UN is powerless to do anything. Probably not, since you haven't mentioned a word of it.

Why do you live in the US if you hate it so much?

********** is an utopian crazy communist and has a dislike for the way of acting of US. He spits on the people who serve the honor of the country where he migrated in. He is also victimizing criminals when they are senetenced to death or/and is minimizing the danger of having Amadinejad as leader of Iran. He is backing up his Arab brother in arms and saying that all is the fault of the USA Would I be working at the U.S. immigration office, wouldn't he never get his US citizenship because of some his statements that are offensive and insulting.