State of the Union

[pete rose]

Can't we all just go to the White House and be like "yo, you gotsta go"? It would be so simple.

 

[CunningStunts]

"everything's fine here, folks. nothing to see here. move along."

Didn't you hear they brought this guy out of retirement to help Gibbs with the White House PR?

 

[Jagger69]

I don't know yet. Let's revisit this...in '12 or '16. The hope of Obama was that he could lead the US to being closer to one nation around shared dreams and values. He hasn't changed. However, the right's mission has been from day one to paint him as whatever they could rally against. Truth or sense be damned. Obama for his 'credit' has helped them in every step by surrounding himself with establishmenters and former Clintonites. I can understand his rationale in wanting to unify the Demos behind him...but I fear it came at the expense of his ability to engender fresh thinking in Washington. Also, how does he hold true to pushing aside the old Bush/Clinton political climate by building his administration around it??

But it's clear Obama's message won't change. The question now is for how ever long his presidency is, can his successes come fast enough for Americans to believe in his message.

Glad you remain hopeful, 'Mega, but the simple fact that you place blame for the lack of national unity on the right is in and of itself contributory to the problem. Obama is a terrific salesman but I guess I've just become too jaded to buy into it anymore. Obama means well....hell GWB meant well for chrissakes. It just doesn't translate into the desired result because there are simply too many forces pulling in too many different directions that have separate agendas and do not have the common good as their basis for being. Those who do care....left or right or somewhere in between....can be passionate in our beliefs but how many of us actually do anything of any substance to get involved in order to really try and change things? Not many, that's for sure. Most of us think that we are doing our part by holding up our end of a debate with the guy sitting on the barstool next to us or posting our various opinions on forums like this one. The rest of us....perhaps the majority....are ambivalent at best and downright apathetic at worst.

Sorry but I just don't see anything of any significant nature occurring to change things for the better for most of us no matter what happens. I thought it was very amusing and revealing to watch the differing reactions of Biden and Boehner in the background as Obama spoke. That little partisan sideshow spoke volumes in my estimate.

It's pretty obvious that there isn't going to be any higher degree of "reaching across the aisle" than there has been the past 2 years and to me that spells just more of the same bullshit and ineptitude that we've all grown used to. Hope I'm wrong....fear I'm not.

 

[D-rock]

Mehhh...I don't think there has been a real meaningful State of the Union Speech since I've been alive and watching it. It's mostly ends up being flowery worlds said every time while nothing really changes.

I also always found it amusing presidents often say the state of the union is strong or good. Whom the hell are they trying to fool? If they were honest they would tell us the state of the union is bad, is getting worse, and we are in big trouble.

 

[Supafly]

Here's the full speech:





I can't find it a number of keywords or such. I find it highly inspiring.

Maybe it's because I am an old-worlder :dunno:

 

[vodkazvictim]

Goodbye America :wave:

 

[Hot Mega]

Glad you remain hopeful, 'Mega, but the simple fact that you place blame for the lack of national unity on the right is in and of itself contributory to the problem.

No sir. Being realistic about the intentions of many who contribute to Fox and host shows on AM radio is calling it as it is. This was my statement BTW;

Well, polarization is currency for some...primarily on the right. In fact, I don't believe many on the right could even exist in a least polarized environment.

^^That isn't and/or hasn't been true? It is a simple reality man that unfortunately too many are just too naive to grasp. Hell, I wish the right weren't so hell bent by and large on polarization.

The simple case for comparisons is this; we were attacked on 9/11 and the overwhelming majority of the left put down their 'arms' against GWB and joined him every step of the way. Not long after that, here was the right blaming Clinton. Why? IMO because unity is just not good politics for them. Then here comes the left blaming Bush, etc., etc., etc. Sad but true. Now if we're to cast aside blame, move forward and stand together...that takes both sides.

But honestly, do you think the same unification would have happened under Clinton or Obama? If your answer is, 'no' then you're probably right. And that is just a stark reality. Now what to do is the pickle for some. Most left leaners look down upon the right's tactics with an elitism and naivety which continues to plunder them in elections. That doesn't mean the right can't on occasion lose them (vice the left actually winning). But the right keeps the left over a barrel because many on the left refuse to...or just don't know how to play the game where it is at times.

The rest of us....perhaps the majority....are ambivalent at best and downright apathetic at worst.

When the right (in this case) thoroughly deluge a leader of the left with mud...in the majority of the cases misrepresented. They're not necessarily trying to convert the opposition to their side. The intended effect is to create ambivalence and disenchantment. I understand you have your own beliefs..but if you just ask yourself..what has Obama done differently from what he told you he would do...I suspect the answer would be not much. So then the question becomes, what exactly is the source for the ambivalence when the guy has only been on the job 2 years? Practically people are down on Obama for one reason...jobs numbers. But when you look at the historical trend under our poorest economic situations...he's about in line or better.

It's pretty obvious that there isn't going to be any higher degree of "reaching across the aisle" than there has been the past 2 years and to me that spells just more of the same bullshit and ineptitude that we've all grown used to. Hope I'm wrong....fear I'm not.

The opponents of Obama want this. They've worked tirelessly the past 3 years to re-foment this environment....because like I said...it's their most valuable currency.

 

[316sherm]

The speech was a microcosm of his first 2 years in office. Brilliant, motivational rhetoric with little substance. I applaud his continued appeals to get us to all work together but I fear that we have simply become too polarized to be capable of galvanizing ourselves as a unified people anymore. Now, we have a republican House that will steer revenue bills. Their agenda will assuredly be a serious counterbalance to the last 2 years. My guess is we'll see more of the same government inaction except the roadblocks will be more in the hands of the democrats and the blame game for what doesn't get done will be reversed. Same shit as before....just that now the pubs have the ball and the dems are playing defense. In 2 more years, they'll punt and we'll do it all again.

Good speech, though. Above and beyond anything else, Obama is a terrific orator. Probably the best we've had in a president since JFK. :clap:

Otherwise....:dunno: My guess is the status quo will prevail. This nation is in serious trouble.

Well said sir!
:clap::yesyes::clap:

 

[Trident1]

Lower taxes, and ditch entitlement spending.

 

[Jagger69]

No sir. Being realistic about the intentions of many who contribute to Fox and host shows on AM radio is calling it as it is. This was my statement BTW;

Well, polarization is currency for some...primarily on the right. In fact, I don't believe many on the right could even exist in a least polarized environment.

Not the quote to which I was referring. It was this one:

The hope of Obama was that he could lead the US to being closer to one nation around shared dreams and values. He hasn't changed. However, the right's mission has been from day one to paint him as whatever they could rally against.

The "shared dreams and values" of which you speak are certainly not "shared" by those who remain so vehemently opposed to Obama. They do not see their actions as divisive since they never bought into him to begin with. On the contrary, they see his actions (unjustified or not, they still believe it) as divisive as he destroys the fabric of America through bigger government, infringement of rights, higher taxes, bigger deficits, redistribution of wealth, socialistic programs, etc etc. Therefore, those on the right see YOU, the left (no offense, just a reference ), as the obstruction that is in the way of national unity. Hence, the rift widens and deepens rather than closes and heals.

Your ensuing comments would only provide kindling for their fire:

^^That isn't and/or hasn't been true? It is a simple reality man that unfortunately too many are just too naive to grasp. Hell, I wish the right weren't so hell bent by and large on polarization.

The simple case for comparisons is this; we were attacked on 9/11 and the overwhelming majority of the left put down their 'arms' against GWB and joined him every step of the way. Not long after that, here was the right blaming Clinton. Why? IMO because unity is just not good politics for them. Then here comes the left blaming Bush, etc., etc., etc. Sad but true. Now if we're to cast aside blame, move forward and stand together...that takes both sides.

But honestly, do you think the same unification would have happened under Clinton or Obama? If your answer is, 'no' then you're probably right. And that is just a stark reality. Now what to do is the pickle for some. Most left leaners look down upon the right's tactics with an elitism and naivety which continues to plunder them in elections. That doesn't mean the right can't on occasion lose them (vice the left actually winning). But the right keeps the left over a barrel because many on the left refuse to...or just don't know how to play the game where it is at times.

When the right (in this case) thoroughly deluge a leader of the left with mud...in the majority of the cases misrepresented. They're not necessarily trying to convert the opposition to their side. The intended effect is to create ambivalence and disenchantment. I understand you have your own beliefs..but if you just ask yourself..what has Obama done differently from what he told you he would do...I suspect the answer would be not much. So then the question becomes, what exactly is the source for the ambivalence when the guy has only been on the job 2 years? Practically people are down on Obama for one reason...jobs numbers. But when you look at the historical trend under our poorest economic situations...he's about in line or better.

The opponents of Obama want this. They've worked tirelessly the past 3 years to re-foment this environment....because like I said...it's their most valuable currency.

So....everything that has gone wrong during the first 2 years of his administration is the fault of the right....including the lack of unity. Right?

 

[maildude]

Hey, look at it this way: At least he isn't Richard Nixon--preempting network television every two days.

 

[Hot Mega]

Your ensuing comments would only provide kindling for their fire:

I'm not sure I follow you..but the gist of my points are; There is a reality and it does no use trying to bury your head in the sand to go under it or try and 'elevate' yourself to try and fly over it. Most particular of it is those who see currency in polarization...it is just a simple reality the most influential and loudest of whom reside on the right.

You agree where you can. Engage in reasonable discourse whenever possible. But you also should be prepared to deal with ignorance, misrepresentations and challenge bullshit artists to be consistent.

So....everything that has gone wrong during the first 2 years of his administration is the fault of the right....including the lack of unity. Right?

Remember, this was the rest of it....

The hope of Obama was that he could lead the US to being closer to one nation around shared dreams and values. He hasn't changed. However, the right's mission has been from day one to paint him as whatever they could rally against. Truth or sense be damned. Obama for his 'credit' has helped them in every step by surrounding himself with establishmenters and former Clintonites. I can understand his rationale in wanting to unify the Demos behind him...but I fear it came at the expense of his ability to engender fresh thinking in Washington. Also, how does he hold true to pushing aside the old Bush/Clinton political climate by building his administration around it??

I suspect you could fall into the category of those who see entities like MSNBC and some of it's hosts on equal footing for fomenting divisiveness. I would tend to disagree with that if that would be one of your contentions.

Most leftist commentary these days seems to majority counter or reaction to rightist misrepresentation, disinformation, malarkey and in some cases flat out untruths.

 

[Jagger69]

I'm not sure I follow you..

My point is....until or unless we quit seeing ourselves as essentially "left" or "right" we shall remain inexorably divided. Regardless of your assertions as to "who" is at fault for the present stalemate that exists, your stance and reasoning do nothing to assuage this peculiarity about the present American culture. Bear in mind that I am not singling you out per se....I could just as easily (and on many occasions, as you well know), have had this same discussion with those plainly on the right.

We are all either part of the solution or part of the problem. Unfortunately, most of us are part of the problem. Hence the dilemma.

 

[pete rose]

every state of the union has been incredibly disingenuous rubbish.

 

[Hot Mega]

My point is....until or unless we quit seeing ourselves as essentially "left" or "right" we shall remain inexorably divided. Regardless of your assertions as to "who" is at fault for the present stalemate that exists, your stance and reasoning do nothing to assuage this peculiarity about the present American culture. Bear in mind that I am not singling you out per se....I could just as easily (and on many occasions, as you well know), have had this same discussion with those plainly on the right.

We are all either part of the solution or part of the problem. Unfortunately, most of us are part of the problem. Hence the dilemma.

Jag....uh, I get this and I've gotten it in the various forms you've stated it in other threads.

Your perspective however misses the reality that there just is right and left perspectives. But just because that's true doesn't mean the two sides need to be visceral, vindictive or violently opposed. I think we all can agree on that.

In the same respect, it must be realized that in the debate of ideas there are battlefronts. Some are on desirable terms others are just not.

Some think naively that if you just ignore those who own and shape the debates that they will go away. That's fairly impractical as ...they are owning and shaping the debates so why would they go away?

Everyone doesn't need to deal with them where they are but someone does...Otherwise they will just continue to dominate the political discussion....and win deservedly or not.

To think it amounts to mere ping pong is again naive IMO. The debate of ideas no matter what level, platform, etc. is necessary. Not for the benefit of causing the other side to enjoin your perspective at some point. That is least likely. What is more likely is when you successfully debate a position or perspective...those who didn't know any better are better for it.

 

[Jagger69]

Your perspective however misses the reality that there just is right and left perspectives. But just because that's true doesn't mean the two sides need to be visceral, vindictive or violently opposed. I think we all can agree on that.

We can all agree on that? I think not. That is the quintessential difference in my view as opposed to yours. I think it is unalterably visceral and vindictive by its very essence. It seems as if political persuasion has supplanted patriotism from my perspective. I don't see it being reconciled anytime soon. Do you really think some sort of separate peace is possible between these factions? If so, you're the one being naive.

Once again...I hope I'm wrong and fear that I'm not. Sorry to seem so jaded but I've been around a long time and watched things evolve over the decades and things are different now. We used to be Americans first. It isn't like that anymore. Maybe time has passed me by and this is the new order. If so, that makes me very, very sad.

 

[Hot Mega]

We can all agree on that? I think not. That is the quintessential difference in my view as opposed to yours. I think it is unalterably visceral and vindictive by its very essence.

But just because that's true doesn't mean the two sides need to be visceral, vindictive or violently opposed. I think we all can agree on that.

What we would be agreeing on is the fact that disagreement no matter how passionate doesn't need to be visceral, vindictive nor violent.

Now I know there are those who see violent, vindictive disagreement as the only way. But for the rest of us normal people, we can't agree on that doesn't need to be???

 

[Jagger69]

^
I truly hope you are right, 'Mega. I mean that sincerely. I have just become so bitter and cynical over the years. My attitude is Missourian in nature....you gotta show me. I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm not espousing capitulation to the status quo. Keep up the fight....I hope you and those other "normal" people who want to have a lasting dialogue can prevail. I just don't see that many out there who want it to occur. Once again, I hope I am wrong but....shit, we've beaten this to death.

Good night and good luck.

 

[Master Roshi]

Goodbye america :wave:

simply well said unless we start turning the tides very quickly, more lies and nonsense from a puppet on a string, very sad state of affairs, it was more like the state of the corporation

 

[vodkazvictim]

simply well said unless we start turning the tides very quickly, more lies and nonsense from a puppet on a string, very sad state of affairs, it was more like the state of the corporation

I wish you the best for the future.