Tax Hikes Coming in 2011

[Bloodshot Scott]

Those two lines are just about useless.
Business? Lowering prices? Absofuckinglutely not. They never pass it on to the consumer, they simply EXPAND and make more stores, buy more items, take over other companies with that now-expendable income.

As far as taxing companies and people on what they SPEND.. that's complete utopian BS, I'm sorry to say. If I have more money from my employer, then I can spend it on ANY of the loopholes in the system. Ordering items online has no tax. Importing has no tax. Transferring ownership from one person to the next can be shown or proven as an untaxable event... if it's even reported to whatever NEW bureau is created to police the goings-on of the public. And those companies? THEY BUY FROM OVERSEAS! China doesnt have to adhere to American tax laws. So they're profiting MORE.

And hire illegal aliens to undercut the middle-class American. The American way! :hatsoff: http://www.numbersusa.com/content/issues/taxpayer-burden.html

 

[calpoon]

How can you say that Federal Income Tax (while distasteful to me) is "illegal" when the Constitution authorizes Congress to "lay and collect taxes"??

You seem to be hung up on the notion (as are many who misread Art. I Sect. 8) that it doesn't specifically spell out income tax. That's irrelevant. If it doesn't specify what may not be taxed then anything is subject to taxation under Art. I, Sect. 8.

But it does require that it specifies a particular relevant scenario to set public policy. That's what a law is. The constitution is not a law, it's a guideline for government for enacting and enforcing laws.

The argument against the income tax is not that such a law is against the constitutional rights of government, it's that there is no law that says you are required to pay income tax at all and so the exercise of enforcing it is unlawful. The catch is that violating a contract is illegal, so if you fill out a tax form and then don't pay you are guilty, but if you never fill one out in the first place, then you don't have any obligation to pay it. I don't know if that is true, but that's the argument. Personally I've never seen the law on the books. If you can turn it up, then you'd convince me.

 

[feller469]

just print more money, who cares if we are paying $265.00 for a gallon of milk, as long as the stock market is OK and banks are Ok, the world will be fine.

 

[Hot Mega]

it's that there is no law that says you are required to pay income tax at all and so the exercise of enforcing it is unlawful.

Uh, this is pretty simple....Let me see,

You're RIGHT, it IS a guideline and by natural extraction it won't be specific.

When the Constitution states, the Congress has the right to lay and collect taxes......that is conceptually the same as when it says the Congress has the right to make laws.

The US Constitution doesn't express what laws individuals must follow..you can't find one incident of it in the whole compact. It lays our guidelines for how our government is structured, it's responsibilities and it's limitations. Not individual responsibilities.

Ergo, when the Constitution says the Congress has the right to make laws..it's implicit that the citizens in our country must follow them..(as long as they're Constitutional laws). There is no specific law against embezzlement (for example) in the Constitution. That specific law is left to the body of Congress to create, pass and have the POTUS sign into law. Likewise, it doesn't spell out what taxes they may levy, nor what taxes you must pay. It expresses that the Congress has the right to lay and collect them....and implicit in that is if they have the right to do so, you as a citizen are suppose to pay them. Our redress if we don't like the taxation is the ballot box.

 

[calpoon]

Right, congress has the right to pass a law... the IRS has no legal right to enforce and enact tax laws that have not been voted in by congress.

 

[Hot Mega]

Right, congress has the right to pass a law... the IRS has no legal right to enforce and enact tax laws that have not been voted in by congress.

The IRS doesn't enact laws. They are the agency created to enforce the laws Congress and the POTUS have enacted.

The is no specific provision for any LEA (Law Enforcement Agency) in the Constitution...local, state, and federal legislatures create the agencies to enforce the laws they make.

Make sense?

 

[feller469]

and the Federal Reserve is part of our government

 

[calpoon]

Make sense?

yeah, crystal. So where is the law that says you have to pay income tax?

 

[Hot Mega]

yeah, crystal. So where is the law that says you have to pay income tax?

Again, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes". If they have the "power" to lay and collect taxes, they may lay and collect them on anything....UNLESS it's specifically prohibited BY the Constititution. The Congress isn't prohibited by the Constitution from laying taxes on income....so income IS subject to taxation under Art. I, Sect. 8....annnnnd if the Congress has the Consitutional authority to lay and collect them on such things as income...then it's implicit US citizens are subject to paying them.

 

[calpoon]

The US Constitution doesn't express what laws individuals must follow..you can't find one incident of it in the whole compact.

annnnnd if the Congress has the Consitutional authority to lay and collect them on such things as income...then it's implicit US citizens are subject to paying them.

First you say that it doesn't express laws that individuals must follow, and then you say that it outlines the tax laws that they have to follow. Which one is it? why don't you make up your mind?

I guess you are the one that isn't understanding here. Congress CAN make a law, if they want to. If they don't make a law, then no one has to follow it because it doesn't exist.

Once again, the constitution doesn't outline any tax laws or any laws at all, it simply dictates what laws can and can't be passed. It doesn't state that people have to pay taxes on anything. Where does it say that? it's equally constitutional that no tax laws be enacted and people don't pay taxes on anything- if congress doesn't chose to do so.

Maybe I read it wrong, but where does it say that they can punish people for committing crimes that there are no laws against?

By your logic I should be able to be arrested for wearing a purple hat because the constitution doesn't say that congress has to respect hats and they can pass laws so we are to assume that it is against the law even though they never said that it was.

 

[Hot Mega]

Maybe I read it wrong, but where does it say that they can punish people for committing crimes that there are no laws against?

By your logic I should be able to be arrested for wearing a purple hat because the constitution doesn't say that congress has to respect hats and they can pass laws so we are to assume that it is against the law even though they never said that it was.

Yeah, you read it wrong. Asking this in it's simplest possible terms, if the Congress has the power to make laws and to lay taxes...what good is that authority if you can just simply say they don't apply to you??? For the final time, If they have the power to make laws and lay taxes...isn't implicit and common sense that you or I as citizens are subject to such laws and taxation ...and under the jurisdiction of the US Constitution must follow such law and pay such taxes?????

Do you really, honestly and intellectually believe that the Congress, having the authority to make laws that establish taxes....must also make a separate law for you to then pay them???? If that's the case, you don't don't understand their authority under our Constitution.

When congress passes a bill (any bill) that is the law provide the POTUS signs it. And if you don't follow those laws, you are subject to sanction.

With respect to you purple hat analogy...it doesn't hold water...there is no basis for the Congress to make a law banning your wearing of a purple hat...it would be unconstitutional to do so as it would violate your freedom of expression.

 

[calpoon]

Do you really, honestly and intellectually believe that the Congress, having the authority to make laws that establish taxes....must also make a separate law for you to then pay them?

ugh yeah. how else would you know what to pay taxes on? For instance, the law that states you must pay sales tax on items. It doesn't say that in the constitution. that is a SEPARATE law (unless you somehow have a different definition of what separate means) that the government has passed because of their power to enact tax laws. It's also different for every state, so it is many separate laws. They also need to determine what the punishment for the crime is as well. If you really, honestly, and intellectually believe that passage in the constitution explains these things and there is no need to make separate distinctions, then I think you are the one who doesn't understand what it says.

PS. It also never says that you have the right to "freedom of expression".

 

[Hot Mega]

ugh yeah. how else would you know what to pay taxes on? For instance, the law that states you must pay sales tax on items. It doesn't say that in the constitution. that is a SEPARATE law (unless you somehow have a different definition of what separate means) that the government has passed because of their power to enact tax laws. It's also different for every state, so it is many separate laws. They also need to determine what the punishment for the crime is as well. If you really, honestly, and intellectually believe that passage in the constitution explains these things and there is no need to make separate distinctions, then I think you are the one who doesn't understand what it says.

PS. It also never says that you have the right to "freedom of expression".

It is well recognized in all interpretations of the 1st amendment that freedom of speech and freedom of expression are synonymous. I merely used the term, "free of expression".

But sir, How is making a law that says you must pay sales tax on items in that case(your words) different from the case of saying you must pay tax on income??? What is the "punishment" for not paying sales tax on items since you acknowledge you're required to pay them??

They also need to say what punishment??? What are you talking about?? You're mixing apples and oranges.

What are you trying to say or ask?? Are trying to figure out if the congress doesn't specify a punishment (which they have) that there is now law compelling you to pay???

 

[calpoon]

I
But sir, How is making a law that says you must pay sales tax on items in that case(your words) different from the case of saying you must pay tax on income???

Because one is a real law that has been drafted into a bill and the other is not. Or maybe neither one of them is, now that I think about it.

What is the "punishment" for not paying sales tax on items since you acknowledge you're required to pay them?

That is a really good question. I'd like to know that. Next time I go into a store and buy a Coke for a dollar and seven cents sales tax, I'll hand the clerk a buck and then walk out. If I he tries to stop me and say I didn't pay for the item I will tell him that I did in fact pay the price that the store charged, but not the tax which was a separate charge not related to the cost of the item and that I will pay it on April 15th when I file the rest of my taxes. Just what the heck are store clerks taking taxes anyway? they don't work for the IRS, that isn't their job.

 

[Hot Mega]

Because one is a real law that has been drafted into a bill and the other is not. Or maybe neither one of them is, now that I think about it.



That is a really good question. I'd like to know that. Next time I go into a store and buy a Coke for a dollar and seven cents sales tax, I'll hand the clerk a buck and then walk out. If I he tries to stop me and say I didn't pay for the item I will tell him that I did in fact pay the price that the store charged, but not the tax which was a separate charge not related to the cost of the item and that I will pay it on April 15th when I file the rest of my taxes. Just what the heck are store clerks taking taxes anyway? they don't work for the IRS, that isn't their job.

"Calpoon.." seriously, I don't know what else to say. If the government has the power to lay (or impose) and collect taxes....it should be obvious they have a defacto right to enforce payment. Just like if they have the authority to make laws, they also have the defacto right to enforce them.

You won't find "income tax" in the US Constitution. Nor should you because the Consititution doesn't tell congress what they should tax..that decision is left up to Congress. The US Constitution grants Congress the authority to tax..which is all that's necessary.

If you are found to be evading taxes...sales, income or otherwise..you are subject to prosecution.

 

[meesterperfect]

Because one is a real law that has been drafted into a bill and the other is not. Or maybe neither one of them is, now that I think about it.



That is a really good question. I'd like to know that. Next time I go into a store and buy a Coke for a dollar and seven cents sales tax, I'll hand the clerk a buck and then walk out. If I he tries to stop me and say I didn't pay for the item I will tell him that I did in fact pay the price that the store charged, but not the tax which was a separate charge not related to the cost of the item and that I will pay it on April 15th when I file the rest of my taxes. Just what the heck are store clerks taking taxes anyway? they don't work for the IRS, that isn't their job.

you can't do that, but you should be able to.
you are referring to state sales tax.
which somehow amounts to the government having the right to take your money because youre thirsty.
you neeed hydration, so the state makes millions of $ a year because of that.

soooo, when you earned the money you were taxed, and when you spend it you are taxed.
taxed twice on the same money.
isnt that against something the founders declared?

And how can the government force businesses and employers to act as agents of the IRS?

that system was enected after ww2, take away little by little because if the people had to declare everything taxable that you spent or earned once a year, there would be a tax revolt, a revolution, maybe even a revolutionary war.

 

[Hot Mega]

And how can the government force businesses and employers to act as agents of the IRS?

The government doesn't...you can elect to adjust your deductibles or your exemption status and pay your taxes quarterly on your own.

In the case of sales tax..you're not paying tax on income..you're paying tax on the good or service.....actually you're not...the business pays the tax through you.

Since they are the retailer, they're not buying products for personal use so they get it duty free. They don't pay a tax on the wholesale price of the product because they don't know what retail price they will ultimately sell it for. That's why they charge you a tax on the sale as opposed to paying the tax when they buy it wholesale. Then when the retailer reconciles their books the remit the taxes you paid them on the products you bought from them to the state.

 

[Will E Worm]

soooo, when you earned the money you were taxed, and when you spend it you are taxed.
taxed twice on the same money.
isnt that against something the founders declared?

Yes. :hatsoff:

And how can the government force businesses and employers to act as agents of the IRS?

Lies and fear tactics.

 

[Red Spyder]

People want it both ways. They want protection and services from their government, and they want to keep their money. The world just doesn't work that way. As long as they try to keep the poorest amount the country from suffering from tax hikes as much as practical I'm alright with it. Taxes are the price of civilization and sometimes it can't be all about people just getting everything for themselves.

Like it or not, believe it or not, deny it as much as you want, but it worked during the 80's.

 

[historylover]

People want it both ways. They want protection and services from their government, and they want to keep their money. The world just doesn't work that way. As long as they try to keep the poorest amount the country from suffering from tax hikes as much as practical I'm alright with it. Taxes are the price of civilization and sometimes it can't be all about people just getting everything for themselves.

We do need higher taxes in order to reduce the deficit. We also NEED to find a way to increase our collection effiency aand to make it so that government departments do not overespend in order eliminate the risk of losing money that was unneeded this fiscal year, but potentially needed next.

When a budget becomes as large as ours, inspectors need to beextraanal.