unearthed photos show hiroshima aftermath

[meesterperfect]

Read my post above. Read a bunch of my other posts and tell me which side of the political fence I ride. I am a liberal. I have asked you before what "liberal guilt complex" means and you have never explained it. Please do so now or please quit bringing it up. It's one of those convenient "catch-all" phrases that doesn't mean a fucking thing but makes bail-out give-up conservatives like you feel better about themselves. Enjoy Medellin, pal.

Easy Jag.Please.
What I mean by Liberal guilt complex is what seems to be a very common sentiment and reaction from many U.S. citizens to automatically blame thier own country for all bad things that happen. War, racism, even a damn hurricane. To blame themselves in a way as if they feel guilty about something.
Its an attitude of "the U.S. is/was always wrong no matter what.
I see it alot in the posts here and I saw it alot when I lived there for 37 years.
But especially in the last 10 and even in the early 90's when I was in college.
Its like a complex, a true guilt complex.
Perhaps the word liberal is not necessary however because this blame the U.S regardless of the facts comes from many, not just liberals.
But I do see it more from liberals. Especially Democratic Politicians.
And the Medellin comment was a cheap shot.
I live here now because I like it better, thats all.
And I am enjoying it.

 

[Jagger69]

Easy Jag.Please.
What I mean by Liberal guilt complex is what seems to be a very common sentiment and reaction from many U.S. citizens to automatically blame thier own country for all bad things that happen. War, racism, even a damn hurricane. To blame themselves in a way as if they feel guilty about something.
Its an attitude of "the U.S. is/was always wrong no matter what.
I see it alot in the posts here and I saw it alot when I lived there for 37 years.
But especially in the last 10 and even in the early 90's when I was in college.
Its like a complex, a true guilt complex.
Perhaps the word liberal is not necessary however because this blame the U.S regardless of the facts comes from many, not just liberals.
But I do see it more from liberals. Especially Democratic Politicians.
And the Medellin comment was a cheap shot.
I live here now because I like it better, thats all.
And I am enjoying it.

Touche. I apologize for blasting you a bit harshly and the Medellin comment was out of line....you can live wherever you choose. Please understand that this Atomic Bomb argument and the corresponding blame that uninformed individuals try to place at the feet of the USA really gets my blood boiling. We ended a war we didn't start and saved literally hundreds of thousands of lives in the process. Yes, the unfortunate sacrifice of lives in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was tragic beyond words. However, it would have been far more tragic to prolong the fighting in what would undoubtedly have been a bloodbath as the Japanese government defended its homeland (with the Bushido code firmly in place I might add). The ensuing slaughter would have been unparalleled in the history of warfare. Those who continue to refute this in spite of the facts are either simply ill-informed or downright ignorant.

That's why I took exception to your comment about liberal guilt. Attitudes like these have nothing to do with political persuasion. On the contrary, they are founded in misinformation and self-righteousness. If you find those traits to be more prevalent amongst liberals, that's your observation. Last time I took a quick count, there are just as many ignorant, self-righteous and ill-informed conservatives as there are liberals. Maybe more.

And I mean it....enjoy Medellin. Anyplace that is loaded with gorgeous Colombian women has got to be a great place to be!

Peace....

:glugglug:

 

[Legzman]

Awesome quote, man!""

I just twisted around a famous quote to fit the thread. Did someone else say it like that first?

 

[meesterperfect]

Peace....

:glugglug:

I apoligize to all for hogging this thread.
Jagger
you are right. and i shouldnt catergorize everybody in liberal and conservative categories. its just not reality.
i realize its not that black and white.
and you have actually showed me that many times, on this and other threads.
I regretted putting that liberal guilt comment in there in the first place.
I do think there is a guilt comlpex yes, but its really got very little to do with democrat or repub.
ok, again thanks, and i completly understand your initial reaction ,it was justified.
you are one of the reasons this board is fun to hang around on,keep posting please.

 

[senob44]

If history was written by an unbiased hand, that would all sound preposterous. Japan had already surrendered. In any case. I think I misjudged you before. I don't think you and I are going to get along *at all*. I'm glad I'm not going to be around!

Where is your proof that Japan had already surrendered? Where is it? Quotes have already been posted on this thread to verify that they surrendered after the atomic bombs were dropped. It's nice when you can doctor the facts to suit your own viewpoint.

And as for the bolded part. What the hell is that supposed to be? I'm not worthy of you anymore because I disagree with you? Yeah, that's a real mature way to handle a difference of opinion. But don't you worry, I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it! :1orglaugh

You come off all the time as condescending to those who have different opinions. But the reality is, even if everyone was just like you, the world still wouldn't be wine and roses, so come off it!

 

[senob44]

I believe that I understand where you are coming from, Fox. I think a lot of where we may differ is in my trust of the government. I think that at least in the US, we have little choice but to trust our government. I just don't see any feasible way for the common man to drastically change policy, much less stage an uprising to overthrow our corrupt government. (yes I do believe the government is somewhat corrupt). However, I trust the government for a lot of things, and perhaps that makes me naive. While I don't hesitate to criticize our president and others officials for things I believe they are doing wrong, I often give them a pass due to the benefit of the doubt. I also often take the word of presidents and high ranking officials (current administration excepted) when they detail their version of events. But I am one who will not go so far as to suggest that that makes me a "better American". I also would not call you an anti-American as some might.

Basically, Fox, we will have our differences for these reasons, it is inevitable. But what can we really do? We're adults, we have our viewpoints and we disagree. You know it happens a lot on here. If any of my comments in any thread were mean or rude, I apologize. But aside from that, we're just a little different.

 

[Apex]

thankfuly it hasnt been done again since ww2

 

[Legzman]

so has anyone noticed fox is back?

 

[Transdurmal]

I don't have the proof. Your proof is in the history books, but they are completely biased. Neither of us can really prove anything without a time machine, but in today's logic, you would win the "proof battle" that's for sure. I'm not doctoring facts. I'm disputing them. Like I said, in a lot of places, it's commonly held that Japan was already going to surrender. I can't prove it, so, what can I say.

If you can't prove it, then WHY THE FUCK DID YOU EVEN MENTION IT??!!!!! Do you truly want to come across and be seen by one and all as a douchy troll? Congrats, you've succeeded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:nanner::nanner::nanner::nanner::nanner:

If you are going to as you claim, "I'm not doctoring facts. I'm disputing them", then what the fuck is your evidence to the contrary? What precisely are your facts? You are the one making the claim, therefore you are the one who has to come up with facts to support your claim. So far all you have done is bleat and shriek like a seven year old throwing a temper tantrum.

Just so you know, Wikipedia doesn't count as a valid cite here at Freeones.

 

[Friday on my mind]

If you can't prove it, then WHY THE FUCK DID YOU EVEN MENTION IT??!!!!! Do you truly want to come across and be seen by one and all as a douchy troll? Congrats, you've succeeded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:nanner::nanner::nanner::nanner::nanner:

If you are going to as you claim, "I'm not doctoring facts. I'm disputing them", then what the fuck is your evidence to the contrary? What precisely are your facts? You are the one making the claim, therefore you are the one who has to come up with facts to support your claim. So far all you have done is bleat and shriek like a seven year old throwing a temper tantrum.

Just so you know, Wikipedia doesn't count as a valid cite here at Freeones.

Wow LOL.
I'm not here to say the use of the bombs was a crime or anything but there is evidence that the Japanease were looking to surrender before thier use.People like Eisenhower thought the use of the bombs was unneccesary.The Japanease would have surrendered "conditionally" with the main condition being the preservation of the emperor which as I said earlier ironically we did allow later.If you goggle the question "japanese were trying to surrender before a bombs" you will get a lot links that say yes they were.Here is one.
http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/2010/atomic.htm

Oh and BTW I find Wikepedia to be a very reliable source and think it is very presumtous of you to declare flatly it is not a valid source here at freeones.I use it and will continue to use it.

 

[Minnesota Fats]

Oh fuck not this again. Goddammit....how many horrific pictures of the aftermath of warfare can somebody find??? YES...it was a horrible decision that had to be made at the time. I wonder how many of you motherfuckers (not everyone here included of course!) would have been willing to take the place of an American soldier who would have been involved in an amphibious assault on Kyushu....Shikoku....Honshu....Hokkaido???? How many pictures of American bodies would we be able to show of that fucking campaign??? How many other Japanese soldiers and civilians would have been killed in an American invasion of Japan? How many saturation-bombing sorties would our B-29s have made on Japanese cities like Tokyo, Yokohama, Osaka, Kobe, Nagoya....cities with much bigger populations than Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

My grandfather died in combat in WWII. I never saw the picture of his body after the Germans killed him but I bet it wasn't pretty. Give up on this subject....we didn't start the fucking war but we damn sure ended it. The lesson to be learned is don't go down the road toward global conquest unless you are prepared to suffer the consequences.

It blows me away how many people sound off on this forum that don't know shit about history.

SEMPER FIDELIS. And AMEN. :hatsoff:

It's quite amazing that most young people today are taught that the United States was the brutal aggressor in the Pacific theater of Word War II when actually we were drawn into the conflict (subsequent war) by Japan's cowardly act of bombing Pearl Harbor.

Consider this:

Up until 1940, the United States sold steel, iron, and rubber products as well as supplying all the oil to Japan (cutting the supply line eventually led to Hirohito's decisions to invade Indo-China and the Japanese War Cabinet's attempt to cripple the American Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor.)

While I find the use of nuclear weapons reprehensible, in this instance the United States was left with very little choice to use atomics. While I do not condone it, I still support the decisions that were made some sixty, almost seventy years ago.

Regardless, it is a moot point; it is part of our United States history that cannot be changed no matter how self-righteously outraged, piously indignant, and liberalistic a great majority of our citizens have become. Tragic, yes ... but had Germany or Japan had it available to them (which they almost did) I'm quite sure neither Emperor Hirohito nor Chancellor Adolf Hitler would've hesitated to do the same to us.

LET IT GO. IT IS HISTORY; IT CANNOT BE UNDONE NOR CAN IT BE CHANGED.

We must learn the lessons and strive to never repeat those same mistakes. :hatsoff:

 

[Jagger69]

If you just called me a motherfucker, well, good for you.

I never once referred to you personally, Fox. I used the term "motherfuckers" only to add an exclamation point to my stance (in retrospect, maybe I should have used "dudes" instead). As far as I know (maybe I'm wrong), you have never fucked your mother. Sorry if you took personal offense to the verbiage but you flatter yourself if you think I am directing my posts specifically toward you. I'm not.

However, since you seem to enjoy the spotlight and the fact that you are really good at second-guessing the policies that the Truman administration felt were needed in order to end the war in the most expeditious and effective manner possible according to how they saw it, I would be very interested in hearing what your plan to end the war would have been had you been in charge that would have resulted in a greater savings of life and property destruction than the course of action that was actually taken. And please, back your argument up with facts, not opinion or speculation. If you present a viable alternative to what the actual decisions that were implemented and can substantiate it with verifiable documentation, I will totally apologize to you and all others who have condemned the USA for "war crimes" for dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do we have a deal?

 

[Jagger69]

I don't want an apology. If you don't want to apologize for using motherfuckers, no big deal, but you specifically said you motherfuckers and then said not you two or something, meaning those you were opposing, including me - etc. Whatever. You know what you said. Boring.

You know my stance. Japan was about to surrender. No plan necessary. I believe that completely. I don't trust biased history books so I believe what makes most logical sense to me. It's very complicated why that makes most logical sense to me, but like I said lots of others believe that too.

I don't have any proof. I don't need any proof. Friday On My Mind posts links. He already posted one. Use that as the back-up for my claim.

I do enjoy the spotlight. Thanks for noticing. Since we're on an insult-kick *fuck the murderous, lying, son-of-a-bitch Truman administration and may they writhe in their graves in remorse of all the nuked dead souls on their hands until the end of time, the motherfuckers* now we're even.

OK....forget the apology then. It still doesn't mean my comments were directed at you. I think you want them to be so hey suit yourself.

If you choose to speculate and offer no proof about your allegations, this becomes a totally subjective argument and there's no sense debating about opinions. Go ahead and and hate the US for doing what we had to do. You still have not presented a legitimate alternative plan per my challenge so I have no choice but to assume you have none. OK by me.

Enjoy the rest of your evening.....

 

[ÆGEAN]

i think the Japs deserved it, they butchered their way to Papua New Guinea and treated Australian, American, British, Indian, Chinese, Dutch and many other POW's like animals. Heard horrific story of when Singapore fell, they captured a group of Australian nurses trying to evactuate and they were on the beach. They rounded them up and shot them all. They are fecking nurses ffs.

Anyway that is my rant for the day i suppose.

 

[negator]

best

Thread

Ever!!!!

 

[bombardier52]

Fox,
I have spent a day looking through more sources than I really care to and I can't find a whole lot that says that Japan had already surrendered. I did find some stuff that said Japan made diplomatic overtures to the Soviet Union to broker a peace, but did not get anywhere. The Ultra intercepts on that are very fascinating.

The link below has about a zillion unclassified documents including Ultra intercepts that have the Japanese governments orders to their diplomats about trying to reach peace. What they want is far from the surrender that the allies were demanding though.

There are memos in here that are both for and against using the bomb and some that seem to back up Fox's assertion that the bombs were a diplomatic tool aimed at Stalin. None of them advocate using the bombs solely for that purpose, they just note that it would accomplish that goal. Secretary of State Byrne certainly was proponent of that view.

As for Eisenhower and some other top leaders being against the bombing that is correct. But it ignores that other leaders just as prominant were for it. I have a great four book series on General Marshall by Forrest Pogue that states that while Marshall thought it was a political and not a military decision he had no objection to its use. There are several meetings where he offers ideas on where to target the weapons.

On the war crime and illegal use of the weapons that is just not factually true. Populations were legal targets in those days. It was called the doctrine of total war. There were no international conventions that prohibited bombing cities. It appears to me that nobody really thought twice about it either. What combatant that was capable did not bomb their opponents cities in WWII? That would be none. To me an atomic bomb or a fire storm created by incendiaries has pretty much the same effect.

But, all of this being said, I am unconvinced that the decision was made for other than the reason that an invasion would be horrific and probably worse than using the bombs. But I can see where the arguments come from that it was more a statement of warning to the Soviet Union even if I don't see it as a primary decision driver.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/

 

[Nomad 800]

Dropping the atomic bombs was not about killing Japanese or destroying cities. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were chosen as targets because they were one of the few cities left that hadn't been gutted by firebombing by America's B-29's.
It was about showing the Japanese War Cabinet and especially the Emporer and the Japanese people that fighting on was pointless. And it worked.
Even though B-29's were systematically wiping out Japanese cities with their low level fire raids (which worked especially 'well' on Japanese cities because they were mostly constructed of wood). And America had total domination of the skies all around and even above Japn. And an invasion was imminent. And even the Japanese War Cabinet held out very little hope that the US could be stopped. Despite all this, the Japanese people were going to fight on to the last man/woman/child to protect their Emperor; who they thought was a direct connection to God.
The figures usually quoted for American casualties for an invasion of Japan were 1,000,000. But that doesn't include the millions (and millions?) of Japanese that would have died.
Japan had to be shown that they had NO CHANCE. That America's technical and military might was absolute. And the people had to see it for themselves as they had been kept incredibly in the dark as to how bad the war was actually going. But the Japanese propoganda machine could not keep Hiroshima and Nagasaki quiet. All of Japan would hear of America's power.
Before the A bombs were dropped; all of Japan was prepared to fight on to the end. But after these two bombs were dropped, they surrendered in days.

These bombing's; as ugly as they were; undoubtedly result in far fewer deaths to Japan (let alone to America and her Allies) then would have occured otherwise.

 

[ÆGEAN]

it would of been an utter blood bath had they not dropped the bombs

 

[Funkwerkz]

Nippon Empire (Japan) had surrendered after Hiroshima and Nagazaki atomic raids. I saw and heard in a Ken Burns documentary, i think. USA had declared that "unless Japan surrenders, every Japanese city will face what Hiroshima and Nagazaki did".

USA always does that, attacking for peace and democracy and the "American Way". Seriously, i began to think that democracy is a lie like global terrorism.
Let me start with democracy. Democracy doesn't exist today. Everybody aims for democracy but democracy is not an aim, it's the tool that you can create better society. Same shit goes with the religion too, religion is just a tool to reach god and have internal peace. I agree that Iraq did not have democracy in USA standards but this country was in quite good balance. Saddam was a need in that country. While Saddam was governing Iraq, you did not hear terrorist attacks that took place in Iraq. USA destroyed Iraq's internal balance. Now, there is no order that keeps things tight. Iraq is a mess that has mighty democracy now. Ladies and gentlemen, "Iraq is lost"! I have no hopes for Iraq to become a country again. Democracy is not about elections. If you can freely express your feelings and thoughts about anything in in any time in your country, you have democracy in your country. For those who don't have this, let them to have that with their own experiences. "Imported democracy" is the shit that never works in a way that both exporter and importer expect.
Global terrorrism. This is a lie too. Let conspiracy theories get out for a while. Watch some action movies. Since 1991, new enemy to USA has been terrorists, most Michael Dudikoff movies. They were employed by USA and some Western European countries to defeat USSR in Afghanistan (Al Quida and its arm Taliban), again movie called Rambo III. What made them to attack USA after a two decade period? Money! Money! Money! Yeah, US government cut the funds that go to these organisations because they are obsolete now, USSR had self-destructed itself. No need for them if USA does not have the USSR treath. They want their interest and strike their employer in the meanest way ever.
USA would never be saturated for failures such as Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq.

And guys, USA is not the 1st hyper power. Nazi Germany was the 1st hyper power of the world, both rocket and atomic bomb technologies were invented in Germany in 1930s and 1940s.

I love American people very very very much but imperialist US foreign policy makes me sick.

 

[Nomad 800]

And guys, USA is not the 1st hyper power. Nazi Germany was the 1st hyper power of the world, both rocket and atomic bomb technologies were invented in Germany in 1930s and 1940s.

Well, Germany was no where near developing a working atomic bomb when the Nazi's were over run.

http://www.unmuseum.org/nbomb.htm

And though by the mid 40's they were way ahead of everyone else in rocket technology, they were not even remotely near to being able to put a nuclear warhead (which weighed at least 5 times what the warhead on the German V2 (A4) rocket weighed) on top of a missile and launch it any appreciable distance.