unearthed photos show hiroshima aftermath

[Minnesota Fats]

Well, Germany was no where near developing a working atomic bomb when the Nazi's were over run.

http://www.unmuseum.org/nbomb.htm

And though by the mid 40's they were way ahead of everyone else in rocket technology, they were not even remotely near to being able to put a nuclear warhead (which weighed at least 5 times what the warhead on the German V2 (A4) rocket weighed) on top of a missile and launch it any appreciable distance.

While it is true that WWII-era Germany was behind in developing a working atomic weapon, your stated reasons why they were behind are completely and utterly off-base. There's a LOT more to it than just rockets and payloads.

Here are a couple of links from credible sources detailing why Germany didn't possess a working atomic bomb:

PBS (NOVA) Hitler's Sunken Secret

TIME Magazine On-Line - 'The Bomb That Didn't Go Off

 

[Jagger69]

I don't hate the US. You make yourself sound a lot less smart then you are when you parrot that propaganda about people that criticize America hating the US.

Fox, you know me better than that. You are dissecting my words out of context. What I meant was that you hated what the US did by dropping the bomb. I'm not parroting any propaganda and I certainly don't feel that anyone who disagrees with the way things are (or, in this case, were) are unpatriotic or anything of the sort. Thank God for dissent....it's what makes America great.

We didn't need a plan. They were surrendering. Which part of that don't you understand? You Might not agree with that, but you can't sit there and tell me it doesn't count as an explanation of my point of view. Like I said FOMM already posted some citation backing up my claim and there are hundreds online. I don't need to post one. It won't change anyone's mind. No-one will read it. I don't have time to look for one.

Again, you are offering opinion here. You have yet to illustrate any credible documentation that proves that the Japanese were surrendering and we just went ahead and blew 2 of their cities off the map anyway. Which part of that don't YOU understand? Making offhand references to unverified sources of information is not proof. If you don't have time to look for one, then it continues to be a subjective argument on your behalf.

WE did that, Jagger. I am part of your godforesaken nation, want me or not. We did it. And I hate that we did it. And I hate what we are doing now. But I do not hate America. Not even close. Enjoy your evening too.

Godforsaken nation? Wow....now that sounds like hate. Perhaps your are just being facetious? Anyway, believe it or not, I do want you and everyone else who wants to live in the USA to enjoy the freedom we have to engage in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness here in this great nation. I respect your attitude about hating what America did by dropping those bombs. It was a terrible and tragic event without question. I abhor disrespect for and loss of human life. I believe that many more lives were ultimately saved by ending the war in this manner. You disagree and that's fine by me. It remains only your opinion, however, until you can offer verifiable and credible proof that your claims about what really happened are substantiated. Believe me, the minute you do that, I will recant everything and concede your point.

 

[bombardier52]

This is a great post.

I applaud you for your research work.

I certainly wouldn't have expected you to find too much - the overwhelming majority of what you will find supports the western historical standpoint. But there is plenty of it out there - plenty. Especially in faraway places that really have nothing to do with either side and just analyze the situation critically.

In any case, you have unearthed some important things:

- you have shown that in some shape or form Japan was reportedly trying to broker peace. If a nation has shown any signs of trying to broker peace, is nuclear holocaust even remotely conceivable? I'd go one further and say they already surrendered, but even if there were seeds of it, and it was between them and Russia - shouldn't that have been enough for a negotiation?

- you have also shown that there were ulterior motives. Whether a show of power against Russia, or a test on humans, was a main motive or a secondary motive, by doing this research you have lent some credence to my assertions, and that goes in the face of the rest of the patriots on the thread who treat me like an idiot just for suggesting such "slander".

- and I fully respect your conclusion that there is no substantial evidence to prove my points. But your very investigation, coupled with a few of the findings that might not sit quite right with the zealot patriots here - are enough to sow some seeds of doubt. And that is all I want. For people to question the quote-unquote TRUTH. Because there are lots of truths and the real truth is almost never the one written by the victors, but is somewhere out there, in the midst, in the middle of all the truths.

I commend you, 100%, and I am proud of you for treating my assertions academically and seriously. And not demonizing me.

Also, I would like to say if I had any time on my hands, I can only wish I could do research and present findings in the clear and very academic and studious and impressive way that you just did.

Sincerely
Fox

Thanks! Something that this research reminded me of was that two people can look at the same source material and come to different conclusions about what it means. I think on this board many people don't see that. I think understanding how somebody arrived at an opinion even though it disagrees with yours is just being intellectually curious. No need to disagree and be disagreeable. You certainly lose any chance of swaying the person that you don't see eye to eye with.

 

[Nomad 800]

While it is true that WWII-era Germany was behind in developing a working atomic weapon, your stated reasons why they were behind are completely and utterly off-base. There's a LOT more to it than just rockets and payloads.

I never 'stated' any reasons, the article I linked did.

 

[Minnesota Fats]

I never 'stated' any reasons, the article I linked did.

Oh, really? Okay ... so I guess then this means your post - by your own admission above - is neither valid nor holds weight with relation to the ongoing discussion? If that's the case ... why did you feel it necessary to include that obscure (and incorrect) bit of information???

And though by the mid 40's they were way ahead of everyone else in rocket technology, they were not even remotely near to being able to put a nuclear warhead (which weighed at least 5 times what the warhead on the German V2 (A4) rocket weighed) on top of a missile and launch it any appreciable distance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ^these^ your EXACT words???

Word to the wise ... Don't play games or try to be something you're not. You'll get called out every time.

Word to the wiser ... Stand behind your statements. Otherwise, if you crawl backwards, it only makes you look foolish.

Word to the wisest ... Own up. When you write something and state it as FACT, then yes ... you ARE making a statement.

Regards. :hatsoff:

 

[Nomad 800]

Oh, really? Okay ... so I guess then this means your post - by your own admission above - is neither valid nor holds weight with relation to the ongoing discussion? If that's the case ... why did you feel it necessary to include that obscure (and incorrect) bit of information???



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ^these^ your EXACT words???

Word to the wise ... Don't play games or try to be something you're not. You'll get called out every time.

Word to the wiser ... Stand behind your statements. Otherwise, if you crawl backwards, it only makes you look foolish.

Word to the wisest ... Own up. When you write something and state it as FACT, then yes ... you ARE making a statement.

Regards. :hatsoff:

A word to you in return...read.

You said 'your stated reasons why they were behind'. I didn't state any reasons why they were behind. I simply stated that they were behind.
The linked article described some alternatives as to why. And I take zero responsibility for it's content. I merely offered it as potential further reading.

I offer further advice to you; don't over react on unimportant subjects. It makes you look somewhat, emotionally unbalanced.

 

[Minnesota Fats]

A word to you in return...read.

You said 'your stated reasons why they were behind'. I didn't state any reasons why they were behind. I simply stated that they were behind.
The linked article described some alternatives as to why. And I take zero responsibility for it's content. I merely offered it as potential further reading.

I offer further advice to you; don't over react on unimportant subjects. It makes you look somewhat, emotionally unbalanced.

Tell you what, Nomad 800 ... here's a gift for you:

YOU WIN. arty:

I have neither the time nor the inclination to sit here and verbally spar with you over something that is, for all intents and purposes, a moot point.

YOU, though, should chill the hell out. I merely pointed out a flaw in your post and CLARIFIED your link. YOU are the one making it bigger than what it needs to be. YOU are the one displaying the cocky, pre-pubescent, Alpha male dominant, bad-ass attitude, dude.

If you have anything further to say to me on a personal level, then I suggest you take it to private messages and we'll discuss it like the honorable men we are.

Otherwise ... YOU WIN. Happy? :nanner: :bowdown: :hatsoff:

 

[Nomad 800]

Tell you what, Nomad 800 ... here's a gift for you:

YOU WIN. arty:

I have neither the time nor the inclination to sit here and verbally spar with you over something that is, for all intents and purposes, a moot point.

YOU, though, should chill the hell out. I merely pointed out a flaw in your post and CLARIFIED your link. YOU are the one making it bigger than what it needs to be. YOU are the one displaying the cocky, pre-pubescent, Alpha male dominant, bad-ass attitude, dude.

If you have anything further to say to me on a personal level, then I suggest you take it to private messages and we'll discuss it like the honorable men we are.

I tried to pm you, but you aren't taking any pm's; according to the site.

Otherwise ... YOU WIN. Happy? :nanner: :bowdown: :hatsoff:

You are taking this too personally. I simply was correcting you on some, imo, inaccurate thing(s) you said about my post. It's no big deal.

I agree with you that any further off topic discussion should be via pm's.

 

[meesterperfect]

I can't believe I actually apologized for hogging this thread 3 days ago.

And I can't believe I'm about to re-re-re open this can of worms.

Fox, if your reading this.
Lets assume hypothetically that Japan had no intentions of surrendering. If so, then what could the Allies have done to end the war other than the bombs?

You may have already stated this, but honestly theres just to much to read.

I do think we all feel horrible for the innocents who were killed and mamed that day, at least we agree on that.

 

[Transdurmal]

Wow LOL.
I'm not here to say the use of the bombs was a crime or anything but there is evidence that the Japanease were looking to surrender before thier use.People like Eisenhower thought the use of the bombs was unneccesary.The Japanease would have surrendered "conditionally" with the main condition being the preservation of the emperor which as I said earlier ironically we did allow later.If you goggle the question "japanese were trying to surrender before a bombs" you will get a lot links that say yes they were.Here is one.
http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/2010/atomic.htm

Wow, you are just overflowing with the bullshit and lies, aren't you.

I could give a fuck what Eisenhower thought about dropping the bomb on Japan, especially since he had absolutely nothing to do with the Pacific Theater of War, EVER. Eisenhower was Supreme Commander of the Allied Troops in Europe and remained so even after the war in Europe was over. He had dick to do or say about the Pacifc theater of war.

As for the *** conditions for surrender, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Simple as that.

For the last time, yeah, there were Japs ready and willing to surrender and who offered up surrender plans to the Allies, but they had no governmental or military authority to do so and the Allies were well aware of this and thus such entreaties were rightfully ignored.

The Japanese wanted a conditional surrender, but since Germany had to sing an unconditional surrender, why should Japan have been any different?

You are obviously one of those sickos who approved of the Japanese Rape of Nanking and the Japanese infamous Unit 731 and the sickening atrocities they committed.

 

[Dean Wormer]

Also don't forget that there was an attempted coup d'etat by units of the military after the bombs were dropped. They knew that Hirohito was going to announce surrender but they wanted to continue fighting. They very nearly succeeded.

Also pay no attention to what foxelipsis says. He's just suffering from survivors guilt a couple of generations after the fact.

 

[Friday on my mind]

Wow, you are just overflowing with the bullshit and lies, aren't you.

I could give a fuck what Eisenhower thought about dropping the bomb on Japan, especially since he had absolutely nothing to do with the Pacific Theater of War, EVER. Eisenhower was Supreme Commander of the Allied Troops in Europe and remained so even after the war in Europe was over. He had dick to do or say about the Pacifc theater of war.

As for the *** conditions for surrender, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Simple as that.

For the last time, yeah, there were Japs ready and willing to surrender and who offered up surrender plans to the Allies, but they had no governmental or military authority to do so and the Allies were well aware of this and thus such entreaties were rightfully ignored.

The Japanese wanted a conditional surrender, but since Germany had to sing an unconditional surrender, why should Japan have been any different?

You are obviously one of those sickos who approved of the Japanese Rape of Nanking and the Japanese infamous Unit 731 and the sickening atrocities they committed.

Let me just correct one thing I said in my post.I did say the Japanease would have surrendered without the bomb(or a an invasion of the home islands) which is not IMO a given.What I should have said was that there was a school of thought that they would.I only used Ike who I know very well was not involved in the pacific theatre as someone who thought that.Ike was supreme commander of all allied forces in Europe though and later of course two term president and never changed his opinion.And there were others that felt the same.But as I said earlier there was a very strong willingness in Japan to fight to the end if neccessary especially if the emperor was not going to be preserved in any surrender terms.So it is one of the questions of history that we can only speculate about,we will never know what "might" have happened.
And as I said before also I think the use of the bomb was inevitable for various reasons.The country had poured a lot of resources and effort into its developement,that alone makes it hard to not use.Add to that the estimates of what casualties the allies were expected to incur if it had come to trying to invade Japan along with as I had mentioned US desire to demonstrate to the world and test the effects of our new super weapon its use was as I said inevitable.That is not a value judgement.
The statement that since the germans had been forced to surrender unconditionally the Japs ahould have to do the same is kind of childish view IMO(as are your flaming comments childish).War is not a game to be played by rules of he had to sign so you do to.The goal was/should have been lets get this over with as few deaths as possible under terms we can agree ton the idea that I excuse the Japanease atrocities,I would just point out that their were war crimes trials after the war( a condition the US was not going to ever give up in any surrender) and rightfully so.
Now go back to your flaming if that is what you need to do.:wave2:

 

[Funkwerkz]

August 6th, 1945 to 2008.

My heart is in Hiroshima today. God bless the victims of Atomic Dawn.

 

[PlasmaTwa2]

This is the best thread ever, though no one mentioned the Soviets declaring war on Japan really sped the surrendering thing up.

 

[Ravenholm]

This kind of thing happens when the country that drops the bomb can't beat the opposition in a battle. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened. Ever think this is ONE reason why Microsoft dont sell well in Japan compared to Sony and Nintendo. It might not be THE sole reason for poor sales but it has a big part in it. After all Microsoft are American and they are trying to sell their product in the same country they nuked less than a century ago [60+ years back].

 

[squallumz]

that whole situation is fucking sickening. dropping a bomb on such a small country is so fucked up. its fucked up small or not actually. i hate this shit.

 

[PlasmaTwa2]

that whole situation is fucking sickening. dropping a bomb on such a small country is so fucked up. its fucked up small or not actually. i hate this shit.

Japan wasn't exactly what one would call a small country, even way back then. You are making it sound like they dropped a bomb on Ghana or something.

 

[squallumz]

Japan wasn't exactly what one would call a small country, even way back then. You are making it sound like they dropped a bomb on Ghana or something.

even way back then? it is what it is. the country itself. the geological size of it. anyway, my point was that the hirosima and nagasaki bombings was an extremely fucked up thing to do, i feel terrible for the families.

 

[Violator79]

i feel terrible for the families.

Part of myself does and part of myself doesn't. Let's not forget Japan started that war with the U.S. by bombing Pearl Harbor. But I think war with the U.S. was inevitable no matter what. As for the A-bombs being dropped, one of the smartest, yet most terrible ideas ever. But when you look back, it was either kill 100,000 people in one single blow, or drag the war on for who knows how long and over 1,000,000 more Americans and who knows how many more Japanese would be killed during the invasion of Japan. The decision to drop the bombs was the best choice in a bad situation and it's over and done with and no one can take it back.

Now as I said, part of myself does feel bad about the families and people of Japan that went through it. But if you want to see families that are still devastated by the events that led up to the bombings, go to Pearl Harbor today. When I first got to Hawaii to serve with my unit, it was a Thursday, that Saturday, I took a bus and went to Pearl Harbor and paid my respects. All you see there is veterans from the attack talking about how justified the U.S. was on dropping the bombs on Japan.

Yes WW2 brought the most terrible weapons in history and they were used to end the war, but at a high price. But in the long run, it was the quick end to a war that would've dragged on for who knows how long.

 

[squallumz]

pearl harbor was a genius move on their part. think about it. early, sunday morning, catch them unexpected (only americans would take a break from a war on sunday morning).

the strike wasnt intended to massacre a ton of people like the americas nuclear bombs, it was to disable the naval base. it was an attack on the ships and stockyards, not the navy men. of course, much respect to those men, but still, it was a completely different tactic than a fucking nuclear bomb. the bomb was dropped on civilians.