University of Michigan gets ready to go totally smoke-free on campus

[Atar554]

I'm not sure why that matters in this discussion Atar.

I think the point/effect of UM's actions is to govern personal behavior they disagree with.

That's is wrong and sets a slippery precedence. Now of course you'll have those who line up on the side of encroachment into personal behavior (who otherwise wouldn't) just because this particular personal behavior they disagree with. But extremist interference in personal behavior is wrong no matter where from.

My point was that you're attending their facilities for which they set the rules. You either pay to play or leave. I'm not saying that's the right way or best way but that's the current way.

It sets a precedence for one University among thousands. It's no worse than when my local Dunkin Donuts went smoke free.

My HS was smoke free and a closed campus to boot. So even before or after school or on weekends you weren't allowed on property smoking...period. That hasn't yet lead to the downfall of humanity. I suspect this won't either.

Statewide banning imo is a more pertinent matter as far as people's rights are concerned.

 

[Shifty]

Before long, people will be charging smokers with assault. :ban2:

 

[Atar554]

The day will come when people will start charging smokers with assault. :ban2:

Everything waxes and wanes.

People care now but they won't always and when they don't laws will relax and people will take up the cause of smokers having the right to smoke anywhere.

Even though honestly either way you slice it, you're encroaching on someone else's rights.

 

[Hot Mega]

My point was that you're attending their facilities for which they set the rules. You either pay to play or leave. I'm not saying that's the right way or best way but that's the current way.

It sets a precedence for one University among thousands. It's no worse than when my local Dunkin Donuts went smoke free.

My HS was smoke free and a closed campus to boot. So even before or after school or on weekends you weren't allowed on property smoking...period. That hasn't yet lead to the downfall of humanity. I suspect this won't either.

Statewide banning imo is a more pertinent matter as far as people's rights are concerned.

Here in lies the plot....

A (reasonable) person who's made the decision that they want a UM education and becomes accepted then ponies up the funding for the endeavor isn't going to roll back all of that just because they want to smoke more.

Ergo, this person will ultimately decide to forgo smoking enough to not do it on campus or pay the ransom the school charges for each time they're caught.

Ultimately it will force some people to stop smoking (the plan to begin with), not necessarily a bad thing for the individual but it is a bad thing for individual freedom.

Who is some school to decide they want to forcibly stop people from smoking by holding their chance at a specific type of education hostage?

 

[Atar554]

Here in lies the plot....

A (reasonable) person who's made the decision that they want a UM education and becomes accepted then ponies up the funding for the endeavor isn't going to roll back all of that just because they want to smoke more.

Ergo, this person will ultimately decide to forgo smoking enough to not do it on campus or pay the ransom the school charges for each time they're caught.

Ultimately it will force some people to stop smoking (the plan to begin with), not necessarily a bad thing for the individual but it is a bad thing for individual freedom.

Who is some school to decide they want to forcibly stop people from smoking by holding their chance at a specific type of education hostage?

Which brings me back to my point. The money you pony up for most schools will include things that have no relevance to your personal education. Jacking up the price and keeping you from easily affording it and making you work to get loans and aid etc...

Higher learning is already held hostage.

You're not just buying an education you're paying into the "club". You're buying into the way the University does things. The powers that be in charge there decide how it runs. That's why people are always encouraged to visit and tour the campus and school programs before they decide to attend.

Also school administrations aren't exactly set up democratically. If they want to pick up a social issue and turn it into a banner for themselves they can.

Sorta like integration of schools or when all boy academies decide to allow women. Societal pressures and people in positions of power who relate to that society get to decide what direction rules head in.

Here's an anecdotal for instance; my father was in the Air Force and picked up smoking because you could get a break to do it essentially at will during downtime. If you didn't smoke you had to stay in the barracks.

Fair?

 

[Trident1]

Before long, people will be charging smokers with assault. :ban2:

Very likely.

 

[Hot Mega]

Which brings me back to my point. The money you pony up for most schools will include things that have no relevance to your personal education. Jacking up the price and keeping you from easily affording it and making you work to get loans and aid etc...

Higher learning is already held hostage.

You're not just buying an education you're paying into the "club". You're buying into the way the University does things. The powers that be in charge there decide how it runs. That's why people are always encouraged to visit and tour the campus and school programs before they decide to attend.

Also school administrations aren't exactly set up democratically. If they want to pick up a social issue and turn it into a banner for themselves they can.

Sorta like integration of schools or when all boy academies decide to allow women. Societal pressures and people in positions of power who relate to that society get to decide what direction rules head in.

Here's an anecdotal for instance; my father was in the Air Force and picked up smoking because you could get a break to do it essentially at will during downtime. If you didn't smoke you had to stay in the barracks.

Fair?

You lost me on this....

Regarding your father, if the facts are as you say I would believe based on them your father picked up smoking because he at minimum had no reason not to. That isn't the fault of Air Force policy IMO.

 

[Atar554]

You lost me on this....

Regarding your father, if the facts are as you say I would believe based on them your father picked up smoking because he at minimum had no reason not to. That isn't the fault of Air Force policy IMO.

Because of the policy of allowing smoke breaks...the policy begets the not having a reason not to...

As far as the part I lost you on. You're arguing it's affecting someone's access to education.

My contention is that it's just one more (potential) thing in the way of people getting access to the school of their choice.

Those other things are perfectly okay as they aren't fought against. However smoking is. Why the double standard?

Students could choose to smoke somewhere else or not at all. Just like students who attend can choose to buy new books, buy used or borrow. Just like they choose to get a part time job to pay for it or aid or go into massive debt in loans etc...Everyone makes sacrifices across the board to get educated. Many of them limiting on your freedoms and choices.

 

[Hot Mega]

Because of the policy of allowing smoke breaks...the policy begets the not having a reason not to...

As far as the part I lost you on. You're arguing it's affecting someone's access to education.

My contention is that it's just one more (potential) thing in the way of people getting access to the school of their choice.

Those other things are perfectly okay as they aren't fought against. However smoking is. Why the double standard?

Students could choose to smoke somewhere else or not at all. Just like students who attend can choose to buy new books, buy used or borrow. Just like they choose to get a part time job to pay for it or aid or go into massive debt in loans etc...Everyone makes sacrifices across the board to get educated. Many of them limiting on your freedoms and choices.

Okay.:dunno: We disagree on this one but I at least think we've asserted both of our points.

 

[Atar554]

Yeah. I'm not against your position either. You have good points, don't think I don't realize that. :hybrid:

 

[Hot Mega]

Yeah. I'm not against your position either. You have good points, don't think I don't realize that. :hybrid:

Well, both of my parent's smoked throughout my childhood but have both quit for about 10 or 15 years. I didn't like it and I never picked up cigarette smoking even though I tried to..(smoked here and there but it never became a habit).

I have no interested in smoking cigarettes at all although I enjoy cigars.

All that said, I have no personal animosity towards smoking or smokers. It's a choice/habit some people engage in. Some people don't...there is room in the world for both is my position.

 

[Atar554]

Well, both of my parent's smoked throughout my childhood but have both quit for about 10 or 15 years. I didn't like it and I never picked up cigarette smoking even though I tried to..(smoked here and there but it never became a habit).

I have no interested in smoking cigarettes at all although I enjoy cigars.

All that said, I have no personal animosity towards smoking or smokers. It's a choice/habit some people engage in. Some people don't...there is room in the world for both is my position.

My dad quit when I was so young I didn't remember till he told me years later.

Never started smoking myself and only smoked half of one in my life. Was horrible do to allergies lol.

Never tried cigars but I like the smell of black and milds. I also like the smell of the scented tobacco's from pipes.

 

[D-rock]

It's a good thing they are sending the message that smoking is bad for you

...considering how hard it is to know that after all. Nobody would be able to figure it out if it wasn't for them.

 

[Juliuscaesar]

I smoke, and I say fuck this!