What do you think about.... (warning: philosophical content)

[Spreeuw]

I'm going to bore all of you now, but I'm wondering for a few days about a certain tension between two modern idea's.
On the one hand (at least here in the Netherlands) market values take over a big portion of daily life and the management culture has even made it to politics. (A realm where individualistic considerations should be kept to a minimum because it's about making rules for the society as a whole instead of individual gain.)
So I've been thinking about how this new concept of rationality (as in: making a cost/benefits calculation and let that be the guidance of your action) relates to the concept of justice. Justice implies a certain duty to our fellow human beings/society members/class members/group members/family only, in short: in the very least case to someone else.
Obviously there is a friction here, to relate the two (what is rational is just, or reversed) is obviously theoretically false and impractical).

So to make this short and forum friendly:
What would you rather be known to be? Would you like be known as a rational or as a just person?
IF you have the will and time to do so, you might also share your thought, but it isn't necessary for poll participation ofcourse!

Thanks for listening to my boring rant!

Spreeuw

 

[afterlights]

I'd lean more towards "just," but I tend to think the two aren't mutually exclusive. I think understanding both concepts creates a better-informed choice. I think (hope?) doing the right thing elevates benefit over cost.

 

[maildude]

I'm just as rational as the next asshole.

 

[Spreeuw]

I'd lean more towards "just," but I tend to think the two aren't mutually exclusive. I think understanding both concepts creates a better-informed choice. I think (hope?) doing the right thing elevates benefit over cost.

Well the cost/benefit calculation you make for yourself. So when somebody ask you the way to some random clothingstore, and you're on your way to the mail. The most cost effective thing to do is to give him the letter and make him go to the mailbox instead of that store. (you won't have to post the letter)

Obviously most people will just tell him the right way, even if they have nothing to gain.

There are people who say it is selfish because you will then have the feeling you acted altruistic, and that is the "benefit". However, I think it is important then to know where that feeling comes from. There has to be some moral basis (perhaps even subconscious) that knows what the right thing to do is and reward you for it.
Oops, rant again! SOrry!

 

[Shifty]

Rational.

 

[xfire]

I suggest you take an intro to ethics class at your local university.

 

[D-rock]

I don't think it is ever as simple as you are trying to make it out to be and like afterlights said those concepts aren't mutually exclusive. I will however say that I do believe in certain universal truths. There are some things creation has made inherently right and inherently wrong. Good and evil are forces of the universe to me. No amount of rationalizing will turn something that is inherently wrong into something that's right to do. So while I use my brain to think logically I don't warp perceptions, rationalize, or try to find excuses to do things that are wrong no matter how convenient or how tactically and strategically beneficial they might be. I don't make cost/benefit analysis for things involving right and wrong. Now everything else that doesn't involve the concept of good and evil I use logic to dictate my actions and the way I think.

 

[Spreeuw]

I don't think it is ever as simple as you are trying to make it out to be and like afterlights said those concepts aren't mutually exclusive. I will however say that I do believe in certain universal truths. There are some things creation has made inherently right and inherently wrong. Good and evil are forces of the universe to me. No amount of rationalizing will turn something that is inherently wrong into something that's right to do. So while I use my brain to think logically I don't warp perceptions, rationalize, or try to find excuses to do things that are wrong no matter how convenient or how tactically and strategically beneficial they might be. I don't make cost/benefit analysis for things that are right and wrong. Now everything else that doesn't involve the concept of good and evil I use logic to dictate my actions and the way I think.

Yes, and that way of thinking is exactly why I think marketmanagement way of using rationality is not an good way of judging situations. The problem is that the cost/benefit analysis is now appearing everyone, from hospitals (of all places!) to churches and politics. Places that should be altruistic in my opinion.
Please note that my rant is not about any conception of rationality, it is about the modern view of making everything cost efficient and looking at results and judging thing by it. (Like schools who are benchmarked etc.)

 

[L3ggy]

I'm gonna have to agree with D here.

 

[Hot Mega]

Practically there is more currency in being seen as just than rational IMO.

Philosophically and theoretically being just never costs anyone as whatever justice begets, even if it is what's considered unfortunate for someone...is theoretically what's owed to the circumstance.

Look at Obama...he's done what he believed was rational under the circumstances and is be criticized more than anything as being seen as unjust in his actions.:dunno:

 

[Spreeuw]

I'm gonna have to agree with D here.

So do I but please remember I'm talking about a certain conception of rationality. There might be a grey area, but there definitely also is friction.

Simple style:
Market style rationality:
Lowest cost/most benefit = good

Justics:
Certain ethical standards of fairness or entitlement = good

 

[Shifty]

I suggest you take an intro to ethics class at your local university.

... perhaps, if you're studying to be a lawyer. Otherwise, be rational and take a class that will help you earn money some day. :2 cents:

 

[xfire]

Wisdom is priceless.

 

[Cpt.Obvious]

To be perfectly honest - neither.
I've been placed in a situation in my life where I am responsible for other people and their actions (and I'm not a parent).
rational or just, either way your setting your self up to take a great big load of political social shit in your self respect.
It's the curse of being to proud to beg, to dumb to steal, so i find myself more justice minded than just.
I also could really care 2 rats asses what other people think of me - my friends I take as proving to have good character, my enemies (and holy fucking shit do I have them) prove to me I have sucker written in inferred ink on my forehead.
I've been fucked over by both rational and just. - so i really don't hold much to noble ideology.
I prefer people not being judgmental, especially about me, but that's not realistic.

 

[L3ggy]

Wisdom is priceless.

Wisdom Is The Simplification of Knowledge.

 

[Jagger69]

I'm just as rational as the next asshole.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Are you saying that you are more rational than I am? Or, are you inferring that I am indeed an asshole???!!!! That sort of talk just totally pisses me off.....like you are some self-righteous rational person or something??? :dunno: I mean, what the fuck??!!!

Put me down for "rational". Extreme jerks like maildude really bug the shit out me!!!! Fuck....I'm mad as hell.

 

[Ace Bandage]

There is no spoon.

 

[meesterperfect]

I don't know much about rationality, only that very simply,
rationalically and ethniically, rationality is essentially an
empirical melange of a rhythmically radical but yet verbally
passe and temporarily transcended rational content welded with
historically innovative rational material, transposed , transcended
and transmogrified by the angst of the rationalesque ethnic experience
which elevates it from essentially alpha exponents of in essence
millibeta potential rational material into the prime cultural exponents
of an alien codensic cosmic stanza form......uh, or something.

 

[CunningStunts]

I would like to believe that to be rational IS to be just... :2 cents:

 

[vodkazvictim]

I refuse to accept your definition of rationality as the free market capitalism system:

To be just is to be rational as being rational leads one to being just.
While a cost/benefit analysis inevitably factors into societal decisions as a result of a limited budget the fact is that letting things get run by the free-market results in all around disaster. We've seen it before.
Not only do people get a poor deal, but the businesses which do well from free-market economics by twisting the situation to suit them become weak; only capable of surviving and thriving in a sympathetic economy. At that point they become vulnerable, ne defenceless to foreign competition. Remember Reaganomics and FIRE economies? We in the West went from being the richest to being in debt and watching the chinese run the show.